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As much as I love SwingX... What is wrong with you people?

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thrakhath
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Joined: 2009-11-13

Hi everyone. This post is directed towards the people who are developing SwingX and maintaining the java.net page and swinglabs website.

I really love what you are doing and everything you have accomplished so far. I understand that SwingX is not a charity project and that it is provided on a as is basis. That beeing said...

Why do you make it so DIFFICULT to find good information about the project and it's status and most of all - how to use the SwingX classes?
- Swinglabs website is ALWAYS DOWN - I can never access the information I need WHEN I need it. You might as well throw up a website with a "fuck off" sign because that is the signal YOU are sending me and the rest of the swingX fans.
- The content of your swinglabs website has no mirror. You really don't want people to find the content do you?
- The java.net page for swingX say nothing about swingX 1.6 and seems not to have been updated for a years. The download section has two old files and nothing more. How about cleaning up - If you are not using a page get rid off it. If the page cannot be updated regurily provide a minimum amount of information and relevant links to a reliable online website with the updated information.
- SwingX or swinglabs cannot be found when making a search under java.net projects section. How difficult do you want to make it finding your project page?
- The one time I could access Swinglabs website, the section explaining how to set it up in netbeans IDE was missing... "Please click here and we'll tell you how to..." and the next page beeing "sorry... this section is not complete!". Yet again - why not just show a "fuck off" sign and be honest about it.
- The documentation with the swinglabs bundle has no tutorials. Just look at JExcelApi if you need a good example. That library comes with a minimalistic tutorial that covers all relevant points. How difficult can it be to put down one hour of your time to make that happen and make your library five billion times more accessible?

Are you serious about your project or are you just farting around? You would think that the work you have put down on these libraries have taken you thousands of hours and taking care of these basic points promoting and making your project accessible would take only a FRACTION of that time.

I am so bloddy frutstrated with that lack of information on this. I spent days developing using JXTable and only yesterday I found a hint that maybe the reason my controlviewcontrol won't show up is because I haven't done X/Y/Z the swingX way... So what is the swingX way regarding JXTable?

Do you just build libraries and through them out there or do you want people to use and test them? If the answer is the later then it is something you can easily accomplish - so why not start at that end (the documentation and availability of tutorial material) before adding new fancy functions...

Now, your turn to flame me all you want...
...or you can take the feedback as grown ups.

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kleopatra
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-11

>
> I don't think that's completely wrong. The the tree
> shows "releases(0)", which tells me: no downloads. It
> is confusing that this means "no download in this
> folder but if you feel like a researcher you can open
> the subfolders and maybe you will find some
> downloads".

added a dummy file to the directory, so should be less confusing :-)

Thanks for pointing it out
Jeanette

uvoigt
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Joined: 2006-01-26

> > https://swingx.dev.java.net/ is an utterly useless
> > website. There are no releases to download.
>
> wrong ... completely - learn to use a navigation bar
> ;-)

I don't think that's completely wrong. The the tree shows "releases(0)", which tells me: no downloads. It is confusing that this means "no download in this folder but if you feel like a researcher you can open the subfolders and maybe you will find some downloads".

@Jeanette: can you ask the admins of the dev.java.net site if they can change this behaviour?

kleopatra
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-11

> > > https://swingx.dev.java.net/ is an utterly
> useless
> > > website. There are no releases to download.
> >
> > wrong ... completely - learn to use a navigation
> bar
> > ;-)
>
> I don't think that's completely wrong. The the tree
> shows "releases(0)", which tells me: no downloads. It
> is confusing that this means "no download in this
> folder but if you feel like a researcher you can open
> the subfolders and maybe you will find some
> downloads".
>

good point ...... but nothing that's changeable I guess ;-) My experience with the site software is ... ehem .. cough ...

> @Jeanette: can you ask the admins of the dev.java.net
> site if they can change this behaviour?

can't resist a bit of grumbling, no offense meant, but - here we go again: why do you try to push asking such a question on me? As member of the jave.net community you have as much access to the site admins as I have ... the "contributing way" would be to do some research about configuration options of projects and then come and say: hi gals, here's how you can improve easily.

Cheers
Jeanette

kmisfit
Offline
Joined: 2005-01-18

I hope someday to see this project on Kenai, I don't understand why Sun launched Kenai and kept the old java.net, seems redundant to me. Anyways, just that simple file indicating "releases(1)" on "Documents & files" makes finding the releases a lot more easier IMHO. Thanks!

wegorkie
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Joined: 2005-01-03

Dear thrakhath,

As a SwingX lib user (just like you), I had to click here and there to find files or the answers to my questions and sometimes had to wait until site is up.
Neverthless I was always gratefull to all the folks who work on this great product for free - just for me to have great functionality in Swing. Every time I had an impression there is shortage of docs I knew in the same time that any person from development team that decides to put his/her time to write the docs, loses this time that could be put into development. For me, the development is more important. And SwingX guys were never very late with releases.

Said all this I know you feel the site and docs is very important, so as you want to have benefits from SwingX for yourself it is obvious for me that you will contribute to this very important parts as soon as you get familiar with the lib.
So I am awaiting for contributions from you.
Peace!

cganoe
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Joined: 2009-09-05

While I'm not thrilled with the attitude, I have to completely agree with this poster. The only useful website for this project has been swinglabs.org. That website is down 90%+ of the time I try to go there. BUT, when you can get there, there are demos to run and releases to download.

https://swingx.dev.java.net/ is an utterly useless website. There are no releases to download. There are many, many, many links that take you to outdated or useless pages, under "Announcements" the most recent is 2007! The "Documents & files" link takes you to nothing, the wiki link (which someone actually posted above) tells you to "check the SwingX project website"??? I thought that's where I was? The automated builds link to "navigate to the Hudson Dashboard" is broken.

I also don't know when it was announced that this project was moving to Java 6 only. But it appears to have possibly been in the last 2 months. There's no timeline. This has serious ramifications for other people's work.

The only way to know what is going on with this project is to spend hours reading the forums. Most people are not going to do that.

I had been enthusiastic about this project, but every time I send one of my developers here, they come back to me lost. At this point, I'm considering seeing if I can extract just the JXMapViewer code I need from swingx-ws, ditch any other SwingX code we might be using, and move on.

kleopatra
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-11

> While I'm not thrilled with the attitude, I have to
> completely agree with this poster. The only useful
> website for this project has been swinglabs.org. That

well, if you think so you didn's use the "useful" stuff - all of it unmaintained and most of it is outdated. Please read the post I linked to above. Adjust ...

> https://swingx.dev.java.net/ is an utterly useless
> website. There are no releases to download.

wrong ... completely - learn to use a navigation bar ;-)

>
> I also don't know when it was announced that this
> project was moving to Java 6 only. But it appears to
> have possibly been in the last 2 months. There's no
> timeline. This has serious ramifications for other
> people's work.
>

wrong again - the targeting 1.6 is _the_ point for the Swingx1.6 release and anounced as such. If you need 1.5 compliance, stick to SwingX 1.0.

> I had been enthusiastic about this project, but every
> time I send one of my developers here, they come back
> to me lost. At this point, I'm considering seeing if
> I can extract just the JXMapViewer code I need from
> swingx-ws, ditch any other SwingX code we might be
> using, and move on.

feel free, good luck - and consider to contribute to back your effort to swinglabs (you know what open source is about, don't you :-)

CU
Jeanette

mwithake
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Joined: 2006-02-08

Why is the legitimate criticism from thrakhath not taken seriously? I think all that he/she write is true and should be consider to make this project more useful and accessible.

kleopatra
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Joined: 2003-06-11

It is taken seriously: the very serious answer is "go community and contribute documentation, examples, tutorials - the freely accessible location to do so it the swingx wiki".

CU
Jeanette

thrakhath
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Joined: 2009-11-13

Hi Jeanette.

Thank you for your answer.

I apologize for having such a negative attitude and putting you off. I still applaude what you are doing - However, I suggest you look over your priorities concerning documentation simply because it would save you and many others work in the long run.

After days of pulling my hair and contemplating blowing up my computer, the link that Noelpalm provided solved basically ALL of my issues in a second.

The only thing that remains to be done now is taking that well hidden secretly stowed away treasure mine that everyone needs but nobody can find (without involving secret service, an army of computer hackers and 2 or 3 helicopters for special effects), and put the information in the relevant places, where the people who need it can find it.

I see it as a two step process...
1. Good information in secret underground vault -> major known publicly accessible locations
2. Bad information in major known publicly accessible locations -> out the window and burried under a thousand feed of dirt, covered with 10 tonnes of toxic waste and finally nuked into oblivion and made taboo by the force of law (we can limit it at that because we don't want to overdo it...)

Sure I can "contribute" - as in update the information for you - but I would strongly advise against giving the necessary administrator permission to a total stranger such as myself. Anyway you look at it - the information exists and someone has the permission to access the relevant pages - so why not let them do that?

Finally, I really appreciate what the SwingX team has achieved with the project as a whole. I also appreciate that there is someone such as yourself, Jeanette, who is there to answer questions and help people out. Thank you for that.
I think you are doing something very important for the open source community and Java language. My programs would be weak and crappy without your superior cross-platform controls. I wish the real Java team had the balls to make use of your skills and output in the next official Java release.

Message was edited by: thrakhath

thrakhath
Offline
Joined: 2009-11-13

Here is a hint to what the Swing X site administrator TO DO list SHOULD look like:

[ ] delete irrelevant and misleading pages on java.net main project pages
[ ] put the most recent releases on the java.net download page or remove the page all together
[ ] advertise the latest official version on the main page with direct link to update information and user guide
[ ] put up information about rowsorter instead of the old filterpipeline one in SwingLabs JXtable tutorial.
[ ] advertise your project under the projects and communities pages so that people who enter java.net can find you without having your page bookmarked
[ ] remove the how to install swingx in netbeans tutorial or replace it with one that is useful
[ ] include relevant update information and a short user guide (not referring to java docs which is just technical and will not get anyone started) in the swingx package (unformatted text document is fine - no points are given for beautiful fonts and colors with no valuable content *caugh* swinglabs.org *caugh*))
[ ] revamp swinglabs.com or take the graphics down to the level of the content so that the users know roughly what to expect.

etc, etc, etc...

kleopatra
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-11

> Here is a hint to what the Swing X site administrator
> TO DO list SHOULD look like:
>

haha ... we all always love to get lists - as if we hadn't enough of them

The very last thing I have to say about this subject (and repeating myself in doing so):

GO AHEAD and contribute! The wiki is open to everybody to edit - so _you_ could have (and still can) added a bold line of caution to the JXTable tutorial there (it's the same as on the swinglabs.org because it's linked ;-) to indicate that it applies to pre-1.6 SwingX (and might be a bit ... outdated for that scope). Don't forget: there are developers still using SwingX 1.0, so completely deleting is not an option. Write up your experience and findings, update the netbeans chapter if it no longer is correct ... in short: be constructive and DO something.

If found misleading pages on _swingx.dev.java.net_ which is unaccessible for direct change, please file one or more issues in the swingx issue tracker.

Thanks
Jeanette

kleopatra
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Joined: 2003-06-11

http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=67558

> ...or you can take the feedback as grown ups.

harharhar ... next time you might consider to give your feedback as a grown up.

Jeanette

noelopan
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Joined: 2008-07-01
thrakhath
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Joined: 2009-11-13

Thank you Noelopan. That really helped.

I was surfing around the whole web (for hours) trying to find out why FilterPipeline was not included with SwingX 1.6 and what to do. With your link to this WELL HIDDEN treasure chest of up to date information, I found the answer in a mere second.

To bad all other of the limited number of pages dealing with swingx on the web, are out of date, including swinglabs.org, and giving nonsensical and unhelpful information.

kschaefe
Offline
Joined: 2006-06-08

> I was surfing around the whole web (for hours) trying
> to find out why FilterPipeline was not included with
> SwingX 1.6 and what to do. With your link to this
> WELL HIDDEN treasure chest of up to date information,
> I found the answer in a mere second.

The well-hidden link is available on the SwingX project tool bar and in another link on the bottom of the page. Perhaps before searching the whole of the internet, you should search the whole of the project site.

> To bad all other of the limited number of pages
> dealing with swingx on the web, are out of date,
> including swinglabs.org, and giving nonsensical and
> unhelpful information.

We don't control, nor do we purport to control, the contents and quality of anything outside of our project pages and wiki. With respect to the contents of our pages, as a community project, if you or anyone else, spots outdated information, you should either correct it or report it so that someone can correct it.

Karl