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[JAI-IMAGEIO] Draft of the open letter

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Anonymous

I've written a draft of the open letter. It isn't really well - written,
it's just a way to break ice and have your contributions. I think that
it shouldn't be much longer and the important points are there, so
please amend it appropriately.

Dear Sun,

we are a group of engineers from various corporates around the world,
involved with image processing and Java, and in particular users of the
JAI (Java Advanced Imaging) API. We believe that JAI is a very powerful
piece of software for image processing, in particular for PLEASE
COMPLETE NOTE 1. As far as we know, there aren't other competing
libraries in the Java world which provide such a sophisticated and
advanced set of features. The status of JAI has been uncertain since a
year or so, as there were no evident developments - even in important
areas, such as native support for 64 bits microprocessors in Windows
PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 2. We fear that things could even get worse after
the recent layoffs of Sun personnel and in the prospective of the Oracle
acquisition.

Unlike the vast majority of Java libraries, that have been completely
open sourced in the past few years, JAI isn't completely open - and the
open parts aren't licensed with an OSI approved license. These two
points are really a serious limiting factor, as they are preventing
people from contributing back to the library and creating problems for
distributing open source software based on JAI that runs under Linux. It
would be really a pity if the JAI fate would be to lay in the dust,
especially considering that in the recent years Sun has really pushed
Java (and JavaFX, that could do some great stuff with JAI) for desktop
and multimedia applications.

So, we're asking you to really consider the open sourcing of JAI under a
reasonable licensing, such as GPL + CPE as for the rest of the JDK. If
this request can't be considered before the completion of the Oracle
buy, we extend the request for considering it to the new Oracle management.

List of endorsers to this letter.

NOTE 1: it would be great if some people from corporates included a
short list of examples of advanced image processing made with JAI
NOTE 2: add other important missing things

--
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
Fabrizio.Giudici@tidalwave.it

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Bob Deen

Well, let's see...

* They created JAI in the first place.
* They encouraged very active involvement of the outside "expert group"
when defining features for new releases.
* They created ImageIO, and put it in the core, to address problems with
the codec mechanism.
* They repeatedly canvassed the community to determine which file
formats were most important to support.
* They released the source for the Java part of JAI.
* They, until recently, have been exceptionally good at responding to
and fixing bug reports.
• They, until recently, were very active participants in this forum.
* They, until recently, paid for a team of several engineers, for a
large number of years (approaching a decade!) to create/maintain the thing.

That's a pretty good track record of "listening". Yeah we didn't get
everything we asked for but it's a *looooong* way from nothing.

However, Ken's second point is a good one... not in terms of "why
bother" but a something we need to address. Why would Oracle care?
That's the point I was trying to make earlier... what's in it for them?
Is there a business case for releasing it, besides customer goodwill?

The letter should mention that there's an active forum that seems
willing to support it, as evidenced by the 4 auxillary packages that
Simone mentioned.

Finally, the letter should also point out that there has been extremely
*good* support of JAI on the part of Sun until recently, which is why
this has now become an issue.

-Bob

Ken Warner wrote:
> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
>
> When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?
>
> Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
>> I've written a draft of the open letter. It isn't really well -
>> written, it's just a way to break ice and have your contributions. I
>> think that it shouldn't be much longer and the important points are
>> there, so please amend it appropriately.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Sun,
>>
>> we are a group of engineers from various corporates around the world,
>> involved with image processing and Java, and in particular users of
>> the JAI (Java Advanced Imaging) API. We believe that JAI is a very
>> powerful piece of software for image processing, in particular for
>> PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 1. As far as we know, there aren't other
>> competing libraries in the Java world which provide such a
>> sophisticated and advanced set of features. The status of JAI has been
>> uncertain since a year or so, as there were no evident developments -
>> even in important areas, such as native support for 64 bits
>> microprocessors in Windows PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 2. We fear that things
>> could even get worse after the recent layoffs of Sun personnel and in
>> the prospective of the Oracle acquisition.
>>
>> Unlike the vast majority of Java libraries, that have been completely
>> open sourced in the past few years, JAI isn't completely open - and
>> the open parts aren't licensed with an OSI approved license. These two
>> points are really a serious limiting factor, as they are preventing
>> people from contributing back to the library and creating problems for
>> distributing open source software based on JAI that runs under Linux.
>> It would be really a pity if the JAI fate would be to lay in the dust,
>> especially considering that in the recent years Sun has really pushed
>> Java (and JavaFX, that could do some great stuff with JAI) for desktop
>> and multimedia applications.
>>
>> So, we're asking you to really consider the open sourcing of JAI under
>> a reasonable licensing, such as GPL + CPE as for the rest of the JDK.
>> If this request can't be considered before the completion of the
>> Oracle buy, we extend the request for considering it to the new Oracle
>> management.
>>
>> List of endorsers to this letter.
>>
>> NOTE 1: it would be great if some people from corporates included a
>> short list of examples of advanced image processing made with JAI
>> NOTE 2: add other important missing things
>>
>
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>

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Ken Warner

Well, there was a time when people in the Java group did talk to people
and get their input. But that time is long gone. Unless you have a
big time support contract. Like (I suspect) JPL does. If you are
just one guy trying to make something useful (like me) you don't get
no respect. I know that first hand.

And this current request for JAI source is not the first that I remember.

I wish you all the best but really all of you should form a corporation or
a partnership with funding from one of your companies and start an open
source project similar to Eclipse and just write the whole darn thing
over again and do it better. I know you all have the skills and the
dedication and the need for the results.

Why depend on two corporations who have bigger problems than one little
Java API that really is only used by a handful of people and is never,
ever seen in the wild?

Bob Deen wrote:
> Well, let's see...
>
> * They created JAI in the first place.
> * They encouraged very active involvement of the outside "expert group"
> when defining features for new releases.
> * They created ImageIO, and put it in the core, to address problems with
> the codec mechanism.
> * They repeatedly canvassed the community to determine which file
> formats were most important to support.
> * They released the source for the Java part of JAI.
> * They, until recently, have been exceptionally good at responding to
> and fixing bug reports.
> • They, until recently, were very active participants in this forum.
> * They, until recently, paid for a team of several engineers, for a
> large number of years (approaching a decade!) to create/maintain the thing.
>
> That's a pretty good track record of "listening". Yeah we didn't get
> everything we asked for but it's a *looooong* way from nothing.
>
> However, Ken's second point is a good one... not in terms of "why
> bother" but a something we need to address. Why would Oracle care?
> That's the point I was trying to make earlier... what's in it for them?
> Is there a business case for releasing it, besides customer goodwill?
>
> The letter should mention that there's an active forum that seems
> willing to support it, as evidenced by the 4 auxillary packages that
> Simone mentioned.
>
> Finally, the letter should also point out that there has been extremely
> *good* support of JAI on the part of Sun until recently, which is why
> this has now become an issue.
>
> -Bob
>
>
> Ken Warner wrote:
>> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
>>
>> When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?

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Bob Deen

Actually, we don't, just for the record.

-Bob

Ken Warner wrote:
> Well, there was a time when people in the Java group did talk to people
> and get their input. But that time is long gone. Unless you have a
> big time support contract. Like (I suspect) JPL does. If you are
> just one guy trying to make something useful (like me) you don't get
> no respect. I know that first hand.
>
> And this current request for JAI source is not the first that I remember.
>
> I wish you all the best but really all of you should form a corporation or
> a partnership with funding from one of your companies and start an open
> source project similar to Eclipse and just write the whole darn thing
> over again and do it better. I know you all have the skills and the
> dedication and the need for the results.
>
> Why depend on two corporations who have bigger problems than one little
> Java API that really is only used by a handful of people and is never,
> ever seen in the wild?
>
> Bob Deen wrote:
>> Well, let's see...
>>
>> * They created JAI in the first place.
>> * They encouraged very active involvement of the outside "expert
>> group" when defining features for new releases.
>> * They created ImageIO, and put it in the core, to address problems
>> with the codec mechanism.
>> * They repeatedly canvassed the community to determine which file
>> formats were most important to support.
>> * They released the source for the Java part of JAI.
>> * They, until recently, have been exceptionally good at responding to
>> and fixing bug reports.
>> • They, until recently, were very active participants in this forum.
>> * They, until recently, paid for a team of several engineers, for a
>> large number of years (approaching a decade!) to create/maintain the
>> thing.
>>
>> That's a pretty good track record of "listening". Yeah we didn't get
>> everything we asked for but it's a *looooong* way from nothing.
>>
>> However, Ken's second point is a good one... not in terms of "why
>> bother" but a something we need to address. Why would Oracle care?
>> That's the point I was trying to make earlier... what's in it for
>> them? Is there a business case for releasing it, besides customer
>> goodwill?
>>
>> The letter should mention that there's an active forum that seems
>> willing to support it, as evidenced by the 4 auxillary packages that
>> Simone mentioned.
>>
>> Finally, the letter should also point out that there has been
>> extremely *good* support of JAI on the part of Sun until recently,
>> which is why this has now become an issue.
>>
>> -Bob
>>
>>
>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
>>>
>>> When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?
>
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>

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Ken Warner

Bob -- you are JPL. Don't you think SUN gets some creds for supporting
space missions with Java? JPL will get a lot more attention from SUN
than me.

Bob Deen wrote:
> Actually, we don't, just for the record.
>
> -Bob
>
> Ken Warner wrote:
>> Well, there was a time when people in the Java group did talk to people
>> and get their input. But that time is long gone. Unless you have a
>> big time support contract. Like (I suspect) JPL does. If you are
>> just one guy trying to make something useful (like me) you don't get
>> no respect. I know that first hand.
>>
>> And this current request for JAI source is not the first that I remember.
>>
>> I wish you all the best but really all of you should form a
>> corporation or
>> a partnership with funding from one of your companies and start an open
>> source project similar to Eclipse and just write the whole darn thing
>> over again and do it better. I know you all have the skills and the
>> dedication and the need for the results.
>>
>> Why depend on two corporations who have bigger problems than one little
>> Java API that really is only used by a handful of people and is never,
>> ever seen in the wild?
>>
>> Bob Deen wrote:
>>> Well, let's see...
>>>
>>> * They created JAI in the first place.
>>> * They encouraged very active involvement of the outside "expert
>>> group" when defining features for new releases.
>>> * They created ImageIO, and put it in the core, to address problems
>>> with the codec mechanism.
>>> * They repeatedly canvassed the community to determine which file
>>> formats were most important to support.
>>> * They released the source for the Java part of JAI.
>>> * They, until recently, have been exceptionally good at responding to
>>> and fixing bug reports.
>>> • They, until recently, were very active participants in this forum.
>>> * They, until recently, paid for a team of several engineers, for a
>>> large number of years (approaching a decade!) to create/maintain the
>>> thing.
>>>
>>> That's a pretty good track record of "listening". Yeah we didn't get
>>> everything we asked for but it's a *looooong* way from nothing.
>>>
>>> However, Ken's second point is a good one... not in terms of "why
>>> bother" but a something we need to address. Why would Oracle care?
>>> That's the point I was trying to make earlier... what's in it for
>>> them? Is there a business case for releasing it, besides customer
>>> goodwill?
>>>
>>> The letter should mention that there's an active forum that seems
>>> willing to support it, as evidenced by the 4 auxillary packages that
>>> Simone mentioned.
>>>
>>> Finally, the letter should also point out that there has been
>>> extremely *good* support of JAI on the part of Sun until recently,
>>> which is why this has now become an issue.
>>>
>>> -Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>>> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
>>>>
>>>> When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
>> For additional commands, e-mail: interest-help@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
>>
>
>
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>

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Rafael Santos

> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
I'm a teacher, I am used to pointless, waste of time activities :-)

Rafael

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Marco Sambin - NeoLogica

Hi Ken,

while I can understand the fact that most of our JAI-related expectations
have been frustrated by Sun recently, I think that at present writing an
official open letter to Sun, underlining the importance of JAI for many
companies, organizations and institutions, may be our "best/last effort" to
open a future to this project. In my opinion, this is the only thing we can
do, hence it is certainly worth the effort.

Thanks to Fabrizio and Rafael for their important contributions.

Regards,

Marco.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Warner [mailto:kwarner000@verizon.net]
> Sent: giovedì 17 dicembre 2009 14.33
> To: interest@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
> Subject: Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Draft of the open letter
>
> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
>
> When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?
>
> Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
> > I've written a draft of the open letter. It isn't really well -
> > written, it's just a way to break ice and have your
> contributions. I
> > think that it shouldn't be much longer and the important points are
> > there, so please amend it appropriately.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Sun,
> >
> > we are a group of engineers from various corporates around
> the world,
> > involved with image processing and Java, and in particular users of
> > the JAI (Java Advanced Imaging) API. We believe that JAI is a very
> > powerful piece of software for image processing, in particular for
> > PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 1. As far as we know, there aren't other
> > competing libraries in the Java world which provide such a
> > sophisticated and advanced set of features. The status of
> JAI has been
> > uncertain since a year or so, as there were no evident
> developments -
> > even in important areas, such as native support for 64 bits
> > microprocessors in Windows PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 2. We fear
> that things
> > could even get worse after the recent layoffs of Sun
> personnel and in
> > the prospective of the Oracle acquisition.
> >
> > Unlike the vast majority of Java libraries, that have been
> completely
> > open sourced in the past few years, JAI isn't completely open - and
> > the open parts aren't licensed with an OSI approved
> license. These two
> > points are really a serious limiting factor, as they are preventing
> > people from contributing back to the library and creating
> problems for
> > distributing open source software based on JAI that runs
> under Linux.
> > It would be really a pity if the JAI fate would be to lay
> in the dust,
> > especially considering that in the recent years Sun has
> really pushed
> > Java (and JavaFX, that could do some great stuff with JAI)
> for desktop
> > and multimedia applications.
> >
> > So, we're asking you to really consider the open sourcing
> of JAI under
> > a reasonable licensing, such as GPL + CPE as for the rest
> of the JDK.
> > If this request can't be considered before the completion of the
> > Oracle buy, we extend the request for considering it to the
> new Oracle management.
> >
> > List of endorsers to this letter.
> >
> > NOTE 1: it would be great if some people from corporates included a
> > short list of examples of advanced image processing made
> with JAI NOTE
> > 2: add other important missing things
> >
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> interest-help@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
>
>

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Harald Kuhr

Hi Fabrizio and others,

(Sorry for the late response, I started writing an answer, then had to
pick up other stuff)

This is a good initiative, and I'd like to sign such a letter (I
anyone cares about my signature.. ;-).

On 17. des.. 2009, at 12.40, Fabrizio Giudici wrote:

> I've written a draft of the open letter. It isn't really well -
> written, it's just a way to break ice and have your contributions. I
> think that it shouldn't be much longer and the important points are
> there, so please amend it appropriately.

However I have some comments:

About the open parts' license not being OSI approved, that is simply
not true (AFAI understand), as JAI ImageIO Java source is released
under BSD, which is an OSI-compliant license (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php
). Now I wouldn't mind changing to GPL + CPE if that is preferable,
but I don't see BSD as the problem (personally, I prefer simplified
BSD or MIT, because it seems to be easier to accept in certain
organizations, and may thus get more support). Am I missing something
here?

Re. NOTE 2: How about replacing "Windows" with "popular operating
systems such as Windows and OS X" (assuming that Linux and Solaris
already being covered). I'm a Mac user myself, and I know several
people been asking for native OS X versions on the list.

About business value for Sun/Oracle, I'm not sure, but I guess having
a community that helps making Java the best platform for imaging is a
good thing (given that Oracle is serious about Java in the first
place). Not really the killer argument I guess, but I guess all
thoughts are welcome, brainstorm-style... ;-)

Best regards,

--
Harald K

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Ken Warner

This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.

When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?

Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
> I've written a draft of the open letter. It isn't really well - written,
> it's just a way to break ice and have your contributions. I think that
> it shouldn't be much longer and the important points are there, so
> please amend it appropriately.
>
>
>
> Dear Sun,
>
> we are a group of engineers from various corporates around the world,
> involved with image processing and Java, and in particular users of the
> JAI (Java Advanced Imaging) API. We believe that JAI is a very powerful
> piece of software for image processing, in particular for PLEASE
> COMPLETE NOTE 1. As far as we know, there aren't other competing
> libraries in the Java world which provide such a sophisticated and
> advanced set of features. The status of JAI has been uncertain since a
> year or so, as there were no evident developments - even in important
> areas, such as native support for 64 bits microprocessors in Windows
> PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 2. We fear that things could even get worse after
> the recent layoffs of Sun personnel and in the prospective of the Oracle
> acquisition.
>
> Unlike the vast majority of Java libraries, that have been completely
> open sourced in the past few years, JAI isn't completely open - and the
> open parts aren't licensed with an OSI approved license. These two
> points are really a serious limiting factor, as they are preventing
> people from contributing back to the library and creating problems for
> distributing open source software based on JAI that runs under Linux. It
> would be really a pity if the JAI fate would be to lay in the dust,
> especially considering that in the recent years Sun has really pushed
> Java (and JavaFX, that could do some great stuff with JAI) for desktop
> and multimedia applications.
>
> So, we're asking you to really consider the open sourcing of JAI under a
> reasonable licensing, such as GPL + CPE as for the rest of the JDK. If
> this request can't be considered before the completion of the Oracle
> buy, we extend the request for considering it to the new Oracle management.
>
> List of endorsers to this letter.
>
> NOTE 1: it would be great if some people from corporates included a
> short list of examples of advanced image processing made with JAI
> NOTE 2: add other important missing things
>

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Kustaa Nyholm

Ken,

I appreciate that you are disillusioned but spreading the
gloom is also waste of time and this is the wrong audience
in any case.

br Kusti

> From: Ken Warner
> Reply-To:
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:33:16 +0200
> To:
> Conversation: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Draft of the open letter
> Subject: Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Draft of the open letter
>
> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
>
> When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?
>
> Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
>> I've written a draft of the open letter. It isn't really well - written,
>> it's just a way to break ice and have your contributions. I think that
>> it shouldn't be much longer and the important points are there, so
>> please amend it appropriately.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Sun,
>>
>> we are a group of engineers from various corporates around the world,
>> involved with image processing and Java, and in particular users of the
>> JAI (Java Advanced Imaging) API. We believe that JAI is a very powerful
>> piece of software for image processing, in particular for PLEASE
>> COMPLETE NOTE 1. As far as we know, there aren't other competing
>> libraries in the Java world which provide such a sophisticated and
>> advanced set of features. The status of JAI has been uncertain since a
>> year or so, as there were no evident developments - even in important
>> areas, such as native support for 64 bits microprocessors in Windows
>> PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 2. We fear that things could even get worse after
>> the recent layoffs of Sun personnel and in the prospective of the Oracle
>> acquisition.
>>
>> Unlike the vast majority of Java libraries, that have been completely
>> open sourced in the past few years, JAI isn't completely open - and the
>> open parts aren't licensed with an OSI approved license. These two
>> points are really a serious limiting factor, as they are preventing
>> people from contributing back to the library and creating problems for
>> distributing open source software based on JAI that runs under Linux. It
>> would be really a pity if the JAI fate would be to lay in the dust,
>> especially considering that in the recent years Sun has really pushed
>> Java (and JavaFX, that could do some great stuff with JAI) for desktop
>> and multimedia applications.
>>
>> So, we're asking you to really consider the open sourcing of JAI under a
>> reasonable licensing, such as GPL + CPE as for the rest of the JDK. If
>> this request can't be considered before the completion of the Oracle
>> buy, we extend the request for considering it to the new Oracle management.
>>
>> List of endorsers to this letter.
>>
>> NOTE 1: it would be great if some people from corporates included a
>> short list of examples of advanced image processing made with JAI
>> NOTE 2: add other important missing things
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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Ken Warner

I see -- well good luck. Let us know when we can have
access to JAI and ImageIO Tools for JAI source.

Kustaa Nyholm wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I appreciate that you are disillusioned but spreading the
> gloom is also waste of time and this is the wrong audience
> in any case.
>
> br Kusti
>
>
>> From: Ken Warner
>> Reply-To:
>> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 15:33:16 +0200
>> To:
>> Conversation: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Draft of the open letter
>> Subject: Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Draft of the open letter
>>
>> This is all very sweet and a complete waste of time.
>>
>> When has SUN ever listened to us? And why would Oracle care?
>>
>> Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
>>> I've written a draft of the open letter. It isn't really well - written,
>>> it's just a way to break ice and have your contributions. I think that
>>> it shouldn't be much longer and the important points are there, so
>>> please amend it appropriately.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Sun,
>>>
>>> we are a group of engineers from various corporates around the world,
>>> involved with image processing and Java, and in particular users of the
>>> JAI (Java Advanced Imaging) API. We believe that JAI is a very powerful
>>> piece of software for image processing, in particular for PLEASE
>>> COMPLETE NOTE 1. As far as we know, there aren't other competing
>>> libraries in the Java world which provide such a sophisticated and
>>> advanced set of features. The status of JAI has been uncertain since a
>>> year or so, as there were no evident developments - even in important
>>> areas, such as native support for 64 bits microprocessors in Windows
>>> PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 2. We fear that things could even get worse after
>>> the recent layoffs of Sun personnel and in the prospective of the Oracle
>>> acquisition.
>>>
>>> Unlike the vast majority of Java libraries, that have been completely
>>> open sourced in the past few years, JAI isn't completely open - and the
>>> open parts aren't licensed with an OSI approved license. These two
>>> points are really a serious limiting factor, as they are preventing
>>> people from contributing back to the library and creating problems for
>>> distributing open source software based on JAI that runs under Linux. It
>>> would be really a pity if the JAI fate would be to lay in the dust,
>>> especially considering that in the recent years Sun has really pushed
>>> Java (and JavaFX, that could do some great stuff with JAI) for desktop
>>> and multimedia applications.
>>>
>>> So, we're asking you to really consider the open sourcing of JAI under a
>>> reasonable licensing, such as GPL + CPE as for the rest of the JDK. If
>>> this request can't be considered before the completion of the Oracle
>>> buy, we extend the request for considering it to the new Oracle management.
>>>
>>> List of endorsers to this letter.
>>>
>>> NOTE 1: it would be great if some people from corporates included a
>>> short list of examples of advanced image processing made with JAI
>>> NOTE 2: add other important missing things
>>>
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Rafael Santos

Fabrizio and others,

I'm tied up at the moment with some grad students, but here are my
suggestions:

>
> we are a group of *engineers* from various *corporates* around the world,
Small suggestion: /engineers, developers, students and scientists/ and
/corporations, universities and institutes/.

> involved with image processing and Java, and in particular users of
> the JAI (Java Advanced Imaging) API. We believe that JAI is a very
> powerful piece of software for image processing, in particular for
> PLEASE COMPLETE NOTE 1.
My contribution, based on what I use it for: Education.

Please keep the ball rolling, as soon as I have some free time I will
like to contribute to it.

thanks
Rafael
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