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Do you guys agree that J2ME is dying?

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pakmee
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I wanted to have some opinions about how j2me is coping with the fact that the iphone came out and android is slowly crawling its way though the market.

MIDP3 is taking ages to see the day and motorola which was the lead spec don't have this as a priority anymore.

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shaisoft
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I can't agree more..

vladyush
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Not all phones is locked even in ATT. My Incide allows me to download and install any J2ME application. Only painful that it will as permission to access to internet on any connection to internet and I have not find a way to ask only once. (.NET applications are not required to ask permission to access to internet at same time). But my happy exception from another restricted phones is just good example that j2me behaves differently on different phone.

Message was edited by: vladyush

pakmee
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I seriously think it is a conspiracy in the states. Here in the uk , we do not have this issue. I heard that they mostly use brew there which requires a license.

Maxim Vladimirsky

Guys, you probably forgot, but AT&T is not the only provider in the world,
and US is not the only country. E.g. in my country cell phones are not bound
to operators, and so they have no control over the content I can download,
but the stupid MIDP security does. I just do not understand why a user have
no power to explicitly set a desired security level for an application if he
does trust it... This is a real pain when you develop a mobile client
application for a very small company and have to pay a penalty to VerySign
for an ability to use timer push registry...

Maxim Vladimirsky

On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 1:17 PM, wrote:

> You have to understand that this is beyond the control of Sun. If AT&T
> decides that they will only allow signed applications on their devices there
> is nothing that Sun can do about it. For better or for worse the operators
> control what they allow on their devices not Sun.
> [Message sent by forum member 'arishapiro' (arishapiro)]
>
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gullet
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[b]drdth[/b]: I completely agree with you that users should be able to decide themselves what gets installed to the device they used their own money to buy.

The situation is different in the various markets; in U.S, most phones are "branded" by the carriers and as such being controlled by the carrier to a wider extent than in Europe. I don't have any restrictions from the carrier and very few has in Europe, but still there are other obstacles.

The signed certificate requirement may or may not be needed on all devices, but as long as there is a requirement on some devices, this will be very annoying and an obstacle to developers. The next problem is that developers have to pay both for VeriSign AND for Thawte to cover the majority of phones.

The telco- and mobile industry need a "killer-app", but it is nowhere to be found unless the apps can easily be deployed by the everyday handset owner to his/her device regardless of carrier.

Apple has taken the lead with AppStore and Android is a distant 2nd with its Android Market. (BTW, on Android, you have a setting to enable/disable installation of unsigned applications. It's as easy as that).

I would suggest that Sun joins any of the parties; (Apple), Google or Symbian Foundation and try to collaborate with either one in making the best mobile experience using Java, otherwise the Java-race is lost.

my 2 cents

drdth
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In the light of recent events, this question on JME's future is becoming even more interesting. What will Oracle's plan be for mobile technology ? Maybe in 5 years we'll all be programming JEE for weblogic mobile edition ? "Oracle Mobileware" ?

rogerd_dev
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It troubles me that J2ME in the U.S. depends on the carrier supporting down-loadable apps. My Sprint phone runs (free) Java apps from many different sites, and also apps I can write on my own. I don't give up on Sprint for this reason, although they might go out of service soon!

My family runs with Verizon, and none of their phones can take new Java apps. All they can do is purchase apps from the carrier app store, and I do not actually know if they are Java or native code. When I show off Java Google Maps in their store, they admit that their phones do not allow such a downloaded app. They have very new phones, Glyde and Chocolate3.

What other carriers are supporting Java so well? Does this include loading applets in a browser?

I question if all 3 Billion phones are all using Java in the way I perceive.

pakmee
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Usually in uk , there is comething called content blocking whereby u cannot always download j2me apps. U usually need to contact the operator and ask them to unblock ur phone. I dont know if it is the same in the states.

michaelmaguire
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> I think you'd be better off considering iPhone,
> Android, etc as
> "bleeding edge" technologies, while J2ME is more
> "cutting edge".

I say this with optimism for Java, but I think it's a bit the opposite.

The technologies the iPhone is based on such as Objective-C and the iPhone's underlying, re-branded NextStep OS are from the mid-80's. Java is from the early 90's.

So I don't think it's because it's "bleeding edge" that the iPhone is taking off, instead it's because it represents technology that's finally maturing.

Java is a few years behind, so I wouldn't be surprised if it still needs a few years to mellow. Whether Android will finally represent Java's coming of age on mobile or MIDP3, I suspect we'll find out in a year or so...

Ram Vijapurapu

I can say with certainty that different devices having different
languages/frameworks to make software is killing Developer Productivity.
I truly believe that Java is the answer to everything which is wrong in the
industry at the moment.
What Java needs is a push. LWUIT is one of the ways we can demonstrate the
power of Java.

R - @rvijapurapu

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 03:11, wrote:

> > I think you'd be better off considering iPhone,
> > Android, etc as
> > "bleeding edge" technologies, while J2ME is more
> > "cutting edge".
>
> I say this with optimism for Java, but I think it's a bit the opposite.
>
> The technologies the iPhone is based on such as Objective-C and the
> iPhone's underlying, re-branded NextStep OS are from the mid-80's. Java is
> from the early 90's.
>
> So I don't think it's because it's "bleeding edge" that the iPhone is
> taking off, instead it's because it represents technology that's finally
> maturing.
>
> Java is a few years behind, so I wouldn't be surprised if it still needs a
> few years to mellow. Whether Android will finally represent Java's coming
> of age on mobile or MIDP3, I suspect we'll find out in a year or so...
> [Message sent by forum member 'michaelmaguire' (javanet@michaelmaguire.ca
> )]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=363383
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ebresie
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Along these lines, I would be interested in your feedback on what I think is a related subject over here...

http://forums.java.net/jive/message.jspa?messageID=328946

pakmee
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damn I just don't understand what is the fuss about the iphone...

http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2009/04/11/please-dont-mistake-my-apa...

gw1921
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iPhone's a great platform to develop for..

however after working with LWUIT, I can confidently say we'll be developing more apps in J2ME!! J2ME was dropped completely two years ago by our company but just recently we discovered LWUIT (yes surprising how we didn't know it existed). J2ME rocks (read: LWUIT rocks)

arishapiro
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You have to understand that this is beyond the control of Sun. If AT&T decides that they will only allow signed applications on their devices there is nothing that Sun can do about it. For better or for worse the operators control what they allow on their devices not Sun.

drdth
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You may be right, I was assuming that Sun had at least sufficient control on design and governance of JSR118. But if you are right, then doesn't that mean that the future of JME looks even worse ? Anyway, enough on that, we will know in 10 years ;-)

arishapiro
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This is not a technical issue it is a business issue. The various carriers want to control what runs on their devices.

drdth
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Of course. But "control" is based on the technical framework outlined in JSR 118. On top of that, the most spread certificate is UTI...ever asked yourself why ? ;-)

arishapiro
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MIDP/MSA just provides a framework. It allows both untrusted 3rd party applications and trusted 3rd party applications. However, it cannot define what certificates are considered trusted nor does it mandate the privileges that untrusted applications have.

As an example, on my phone in Israel I can install any Java ME application that I want including untrusted applications and the applications are not limited (I just get the standard prompts when it accesses the network etc.). On the other hand, in the US the carriers are much less open and either don't allow untrusted applications or restrict them greatly.

arishapiro
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It also depends on the device. Some devices have a stricter security policy then others. I have a Sony Erricson which is very good about this. Other phones are much more restrictive (for example prompt constantly for file access making things like a file chooser impractical, or simply allow you any file access without a signature).

Again, this is something that is in the control of the device vendors not Sun.

pakmee
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But again, I don't think that is the biggest threat to a J2ME. What J2ME needs is standardisation. I hope MIDP3 will provide that if it ever comes out. Look at the iphone, I know it is only 1 phone but somehow, we need to be able to get some set of defined and official tools for midlet development. For the time being, everyone is running around trying everything out. Before LWUIT, i used my own set of libs, after that I used some other 3rd party libs and now LWUIT which is great but I think this should become a standard for everyone of us and more money should b poured into it so that it can be faster more efficient and elegant. I am not saying it is not already superb to have LWUIT but with more resources poured into it, it could become even better. Netbeans 7 will be released with LWUIT and with MATISSE support! This will probably be a great milestone!

drdth
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IMHO the biggest thread to JME isn't Apple but Sun itself.

If they had used their efforts to govern towards a consistent JVM and deployment process across vendors, instead of constructing a painful code signature nightmare for developers, then the open source community could enter the JME market and applications would run closer to 'everywhere'.

mthornton
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Without signatures to ensure the authenticity of the code, you probably wouldn't be allowed to run anything on your phone. It is a separate question to the restriction, by some carriers, of what if anything can be downloaded.

drdth
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I wasn't referring to the downloading either.

What I meant is that on desktops, the user can decide if she wants to trust the code or not. This should be the case on mobiles as well. Sun is trying to force developers to use Java-Verified and therefore blocking this free choice for phone users. That is what I see as the biggest threat to JME.

IMHO, the growth of JME is limited by the fact that open source and other non-commercial developers are excluded from deployment to most phones. Why would you write software for a platform that most users can not install to ?

mthornton
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I was able to deploy an application with a self signed certificate to my own mobile phone. That certificate cost nothing. If you can't do that then Sun isn't the reason. Of course a proper certificate would be better and they aren't very expensive.

The only restriction my provider imposed was that the app had to be downloaded from a site and not copied via a USB connection. Any site would do provided it supplied the correct type information.

For something intended to be downloaded from the internet, requiring signed applications is a sensible restriction and one that almost all developers can easily meet. The problem is that some providers (mostly US based) impose an additional requirement that the app be signed by them (or something similar).

signal3

I feel like you're presenting me with some kind of false dilemma, but
I'll bite - mostly because I think it's such a completely ridiculous
question... I mean, almost anyone reading this list would disagree
based on the very fact that they're reading this list, right? It's
like asking if MSFT Windows is dying because Linux is getting more
popular on the desktop... the answer is certainly "if it is, not any
time soon".

Of course, I don't mean to say that the future is strictly J2ME, cldc
1.1, midp 2. There is always room for more than one player in any
large industry (e.g. coke vs pepsi). But when you consider the
existing size of J2ME device market share along with its open-source
and collaborative nature I think you'll find that it won't be
marginalized any time within the next 5-10 years. Even on platforms
like iPhone and Android there is already evidence of J2ME solutions
showing up (e.g. http://iphone.sys-con.com/node/811229).

In addition, the device fragmentation issue isn't as significant as
some would have you believe (LWUIT is evidence of that). Granted,
there are devices that misbehave, and you can never get "it" to work
right on *every* device. But, with just a *little* extra work, you
can still target a rather huge number of devices from the very same
code (/without/ using a preprocessor).

I think you'd be better off considering iPhone, Android, etc as
"bleeding edge" technologies, while J2ME is more "cutting edge". None
of them are simply 'dying', rather they feed off each other as in any
natural ecosystem.

Okay, I'll get off the soap-box now. Especially since considering
death and dying is too morose a subject for me to dwell on without
having nightmares.

;-)

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:58 AM, wrote:
> I wanted to have some opinions about how j2me is coping with the fact that the iphone came out and android is slowly crawling its way though the market.
>
> MIDP3 is taking ages to see the day and motorola which was the lead spec don't have this as a priority anymore.
> [Message sent by forum member 'pakmee' (pakmee)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=327819
>
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pakmee
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hello, I feel that iphone is not such of a bleeding technology, it has been out for some time now and have you guys realised how many apps are being downloaded for them . I own an N73 and to tell you the truth the only app I use on it is WIDSET which is actually quite cool but when I see all my friends around with their iphone and seem to spend their time downloading a ridiculous amount of apps hence feeding the need for people to keep coding for the iphone. What I am worried is

1. Where is MIDP3?? Its already 2 years late and motorola dropped it as its priority.
2. Why have sun released JAVA FX? more competition for j2me ?

I must say LWUIT is amazing but Sun should have released that ages ago instead of letting us waste so much time writing our own UI.

To cut it short, I still believe in J2ME , look at the community for LWUIT, its great , but people don't seem to download many J2ME apps. I hope that does change in the future and someone with n Nokia series 40 would try and download more j2me apps just like those iphone freaks mass downloading iphone apps.

vprise
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Normally I try to stay out of discussions like this when wearing my Sun hat, I can't speak officially for Sun and even when I say I don't people still attach that to me...

So obviously I'm not speaking officially for Sun, these are just some random facts and you can form your own opinion on them.

1. Smartphones are a growing market they sold according Gartner if I remember correctly the sales number reached 32,249,904 (which is a remarkably accurate number IMO). That might sound like allot but feature phones sold 3,047,221,000 for the same time period!
The number thrown around as market share for Apple is related to the smartphone market...

As much as smartphones are growing and will continue to grow they still can't beat feature phones on price/size and calls. With emerging markets feature phones are even stronger than smartphones.

Lots of the boundaries we associate between feature phones and smartphones have little to do with the device features, a recent Nokia S40 device (feature phone) features AGPS, 5mp camera, 480x320 display etc. This actually beats spec wise all the features of my smartphone (Nokia E61) and even most of the feature of the smartphone I wanted to buy (E71, what can I say I can't live without QWERTY). Sony Ericsson devices are mostly feature phones and they surely have an amazing set of features...

The only way to program for mass market feature phones is Java.

2. All currently shipping mass market Smartphones allow access for Java developers, whether its through Androids Dalvik, RIM's API or other options (e.g. http://innaworks.com/ ).
No its not ideal forcing developers to build different versions for every OS out there it is a pain, but Java is pretty much the main game in town.

3. There is allot that should be improved in this market and I think (hope) that the success of the iPhone has opened up the eyes of the operators for the importance of supporting small time application developers.

4. MSA is already pretty widely deployed thanks to fast action by manufacturers who are really improving their devices.
MSA 2 is a remarkably powerful platform that will rival everything that's already out there and include some features not available in most native platforms... It can be based on CDC which I believe most manufacturers will adopt as the standard, it will also include advanced desktop grade graphics.
MSA 2 (which includes MIDP 3) is approaching the public review ballot: http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=249
http://weblog.cenriqueortiz.com/javame%2cj2me/2008/05/09/mobile-service-...
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/javame/msa2-intro/

pakmee
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Many thanks for the input, I shall take notice.

dtondo
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Hummm, i down´t know. J2me still the best plataform to develop. The most compatible and very light

pakmee
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Yer most phones support it but its still a pain to port to many phones. All phones have their own implementation of the specs and often things do not behave properly. Android is a freee OS and so many manufacturers have signed up except Nokia who bought symbian to cope with that( they are probably doomed ). Can J2ME live another 5 years ?MIDP3 is still not out and most people don't even download a j2me app on their phones and don't even know that their phones are j2me compliant.

saturon

I think j2me lives at least another 5 years. If you think about: most
people do not buy a new phone every year. Even if android becomes
available on more than just one handset, it takes about 2 years till it
can potentiall reach mass market. Most people have phones that are 1-3
years old.
The same is with the iphone. The iphone currently has about 5% market
share. Although this is a lot for one handset, its still marginal
compared to the 40% nokia plus the other 40% of SE, Motorola, Samsung,
LG which have java enabled phones.

What I think what is a more serious predator to j2me and phone
applications as a whole, are browser runtimes so that the mobile web can
access phone features. When a standard comes through there it's the dead
of j2me, and generally all applications on the phone. All pains of
signing, updates etc. will go away; existing web content can just be
integrated with more ease developing for the mobile web than developing
a client app.

My 2 cents..

-----Original Message-----
From: lwuit-users@mobileandembedded.org
[mailto:lwuit-users@mobileandembedded.org]
Sent: Freitag, 23. Januar 2009 15:14
To: users@lwuit.dev.java.net
Subject: Re: Do you guys agree that J2ME is dying?

Yer most phones support it but its still a pain to port to many phones.
All phones have their own implementation of the specs and often things
do not behave properly. Android is a freee OS and so many manufacturers
have signed up except Nokia who bought symbian to cope with that( they
are probably doomed ). Can J2ME live another 5 years ?MIDP3 is still not
out and most people don't even download a j2me app on their phones and
don't even know that their phones are j2me compliant. [Message sent by
forum member 'pakmee' (pakmee)]

http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=327826

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pakmee
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Good observation about the browser. I also think that will kill mobile apps as a whole. Anyone knows anything about when MIDP3 will see the day... Nokia is fast losing its share of the market. If the trend continues, it will be overtaken by the iphone within the next 2 years.