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JSR295 (beansbinding) is dead, or so ...

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dags
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Joined: 2003-06-10

I saw today a post in beansbinding mailing list saying that beansbinding was dropped from JDK7, so it seems it is almost dead, after more than a year without any news.

https://beansbinding.dev.java.net/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=641

I don't understand Sun's plans.

Regards,
Diego.

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johnwallace
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Joined: 2005-08-03

>How much comfort are we supposed to draw from those kinds of figures, isn't that
>another argument to use something else? Something better supported and with far
>less risk attached.

Such as......?

JavaFX has a broader reach than any other UI technology. And Sun's renewed interest in both Java on the desktop and as a first class RIA is not matched by any other technology. I've found Swing to be an excellent cross platform GUI toolkit, and I a supporter of the direction that JavaFX takes them. Do I wish they had more resources? Sure. But with Adobe laying off a sizable percentage of its workforce and Microsoft floundering through catastrophic OS releases, Sun may be the least risky game in town.

liquid
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Joined: 2005-06-16

Open sourcing the whole shebang earlier (F3 was supposed to be open source from the start - that is it's been talked about since something like nov of 06) would obviously have helped. Especially since it's supposed to be about cool stuff, effects, animation, media on the client side, which has been neglected for ever.

Look at what open source communities have done, with harmony, icedtea, openjdk, swinglabs. In the whole time that's taken to build fx, had it been really open from the start, i'm sure it would be *way* better and useful for everyone.

The thing i find disturbing is that openjfx might be the least open source solution of the 3 RIAs tech. flex is fully open source, and even though silverlight is not, quite a lot of controls and libs are (especially from microsoft with a license so liberal you wonder if it's really them). Those might be less lines of open source code than the ones in fx, but those ones are actually *useful*. Who cares if the compiler or if the ide plugins are open source, surely a small number of people, compared to the runtime or video (jmc was even announced by chet as being something the community would have had to help to make it happen) or visual tools. (let's not go into scenario/decora/java-css i've made my point about them quite a number of times).

I sure wouldn't mind as much if it hadn't been promised constantly, started under an 'open' direction, and then quickly backed away.

I don't know about you, or if i see evil everywhere and i'm old and bitter at 27, but when i hear alexey ushakov talking about license problems linking to webkit (!!), or someone commenting on jeet's post mentioning the runtime might be closed source because of on2 (when the on2 code is neatly located inside a jmc plugin !), i don't understand what's going on, and since my trust has been broken many times i immediately think something's up and they're lying.

on the one hand you have 'Not much resources', 'having to let go a lot of people', and on the other 'people willing to work for you for free', that seems like a sweet and timely opportunity to me. Even if there only were 50 people in the world who would work on it (integrate it with swing as i've tried to do and you might have that number or more) that'd be a nice boost in resources.

Do you at least agree, that not even is it technically inadequate (in its current incarnation, we'll see about that later), but that the marketing, management, legal and communication aspects of it are not real good either ? Certainly not up to the level i'd expect for something as massive in scale as the tech is trying to accomplish (maybe not even attainable), especially with such huge competition in front of you.

Remy

linuxhippy
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Joined: 2004-01-07

> mentioning the runtime might be closed source because
> of on2 (when the on2 code is neatly located inside a
> jmc plugin !), i don't understand what's going on,
> and since my trust has been broken many times i
> immediately think something's up and they're lying.
No idea who decided to get this proprietary stuff into JavaFX.
After all, its just another proprietary codec - they could have used Vorbis based stuff without breaking any compatibility as far as I know.
Its like integrating just another binary plug, a plug that cannot be simply replaced by a community developed open-source version due to all the patent stuff. They did this after all the troubles they had with the binary plugs when OpenJDK was opened.

I really like JavaFX, but looking at the video codec decision, I still doubt large companies are able to fully understand OpenSource. It isn't just a magical buzzword to increase your revenue.

- Clemens

Joshua Marinacci

This is what I get for posting in the middle of a very nasty head-
cold. JavaFX is not meant to replace Java or Swing, but it does (or
will) do many of the things that we would like to with Swing but will
never be able to (at least without Hacks). So in some sense it is
Swing 2. In another sense it is not. But most emphatically: Swing is
not going away, deprecated, or dying. It is under active development
and will have new features in Java 7. Rather than continuing to post
here I'm going to work on a blog with Rich and others to make sure we
have a consistent explanation and clarification of what we are doing
and why. Look for something in the next week or two.

On Dec 17, 2008, at 3:17 PM, jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org wrote:

>> It is true that JavaFX does have a lot of cool
>> features but does
>> replace Swing
>
> assuming that there's a "not" missing (Freudian omission ?:) then
> why that FX.equals(Swing2)? Which - as I remember - only happened
> afterthe uproar following the announcement of Sun dropping SwingX
> funding was moved to the front page. Trying to rape in foreign goods
> (okay too lazy to go for a translation - in German I would say "mit
> fremden Federn schmücken")?
>
> Jeanette
> [Message sent by forum member 'kleopatra' (kleopatra)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=322252
>
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Joshua Marinacci

This is what I get for posting in the middle of a very nasty head-
cold. JavaFX is not meant to replace Java or Swing, but it does (or
will) do many of the things that we would like to with Swing but will
never be able to (at least without Hacks). So in some sense it is
Swing 2. In another sense it is not. But most emphatically: Swing is
not going away, deprecated, or dying. It is under active development
and will have new features in Java 7. Rather than continuing to post
here I'm going to work on a blog with Rich and others to make sure we
have a consistent explanation and clarification of what we are doing
and why. Look for something in the next week or two.

On Dec 17, 2008, at 3:17 PM, jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org wrote:

>> It is true that JavaFX does have a lot of cool
>> features but does
>> replace Swing
>
> assuming that there's a "not" missing (Freudian omission ?:) then
> why that FX.equals(Swing2)? Which - as I remember - only happened
> afterthe uproar following the announcement of Sun dropping SwingX
> funding was moved to the front page. Trying to rape in foreign goods
> (okay too lazy to go for a translation - in German I would say "mit
> fremden Federn schmücken")?
>
> Jeanette
> [Message sent by forum member 'kleopatra' (kleopatra)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=322252
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: jdnc-unsubscribe@jdnc.dev.java.net
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>

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osbald
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Joined: 2003-06-13

> Both have a bright future ahead (with new features)

Possibly including new features that might require breaking the backward compatibility rule? When you talk about the future is that because even basic things like simple shared bindings both for Swing and Java and between JavaFX Script and Java has been knocked into the longest of the long grass (>= JDK8)?

osbald
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Joined: 2003-06-13

Must be quite nice for the client side team to take a several year sabbatical from Swing, but that isn't an option for the rest of us.

Joshua Marinacci

It is true that JavaFX does have a lot of cool features but does
replace Swing, and there will be a new set of UI components coming in
a future release. However, it is absolutely *not* true that Swing
won't be supported or that Java won't evolve. Both have a bright
future ahead (with new features) alongside of JavaFX graphics and
JavaFX Script.

- Josh

On Dec 17, 2008, at 10:05 AM, jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org wrote:

> richard you're my biggest fan/stalker :)
>
> FWIW i also think fx has nothing to do with swing, i understand the
> swing 2.0 comment as 'something better than swing that you should
> use instead of swing' which at the moment is misleading at best. I
> *think* the node based controls they are working on might be
> interesting, but i've been disappointed by sun more than i've been
> nicely surprised.
>
> The problem is that we won't have any choice, it's gonna be either
> you get on the fx train or you're going to get stuck with a
> framework they won't support (swing) for a language they won't
> evolve (java). Maybe fx will be viable some day who knows, at v2 or
> 3, if we can use it transparently in swing/java and the tools/
> runtime are good enough (far from it at the moment).
>
> Remy
> [Message sent by forum member 'liquid' (liquid)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=322191
>
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jseltzer
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Joined: 2003-06-12

I appreciate everything Sun is doing in the Java space.

I love Swing and I'm busy trying to learn JavaFX. I'm not worried about one replacing the other.

I'm also not oblivious to Sun's current condition. No one should forget that Sun is trying to do with 150 employees what Microsoft does with 15000 employees. Sooner or later things get stretched thin and some things get less attention than others. That's just the way it is. Frankly, I'm amazed how much those 150 developers manage to accomplish.

There are people who develop web sites and applications that will use JavaFX who would never use Swing not because Swing is bad, but because scripting is what they're familiar with. Sun is making a pitch to those people and why shouldn't they.

I'm not going to switch to Microsoft or Adobe because I love the Java language and community and I know the people working to improve it are as passionate as I am about its success whether its Swing or JavaFX.

I hope next year brings better times for Sun, more revenue, and more resources to work on the language we all love.

jseltzer

osbald
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Joined: 2003-06-13

> I'm also not oblivious to Sun's current condition. No one should forget that Sun is
> trying to do with 150 employees what Microsoft does with 15000 employees.
> Sooner or later things get stretched thin and some things get less attention than
> others. That's just the way it is. Frankly, I'm amazed how much those 150
> developers manage to accomplish.

How much comfort are we supposed to draw from those kinds of figures, isn't that another argument to use something else? Something better supported and with far less risk attached.

> I'm not going to switch to Microsoft or Adobe because I love the Java language and
> community and I know the people working to improve it are as passionate as I am
> its success whether its Swing or JavaFX.

Why? I doubt users would know let alone care what Java, Air or Silverlight are, all they'd care about is the end UX experience not the tech used to get there. Frankly I find it depressing that there is so much pointless duplication of effort between the RIA players and their clannish artificial divisions around some company brand.

jwenting
Offline
Joined: 2003-12-02

> > I'm not going to switch to Microsoft or Adobe
> because I love the Java language and
> > community and I know the people working to improve
> it are as passionate as I am
> > its success whether its Swing or JavaFX.
>
> Why? I doubt users would know let alone care what
> Java, Air or Silverlight are, all they'd care about
> is the end UX experience not the tech used to get
> there. Frankly I find it depressing that there is so

I've been saying that for the better part of a decade, but developers just don't seem to understand it.
We still see specific technologies being used for the sake of the technology rather than because they yield superior results for the end user.

> much pointless duplication of effort between the RIA
> players and their clannish artificial divisions
> around some company brand.

With all major platforms created by specific companies and heavily integrated with their (commercial in all but Sun's case) tooling, that's hardly surprising.
At the moment there is no single RIA environment that's an open standard (or even an open implementation of a closed standard).
Maybe the whole concept is too young for that, and the creators first need their ROI before opening up their creations, something I can fully understand.

Joshua Marinacci

It is true that JavaFX does have a lot of cool features but does
replace Swing, and there will be a new set of UI components coming in
a future release. However, it is absolutely *not* true that Swing
won't be supported or that Java won't evolve. Both have a bright
future ahead (with new features) alongside of JavaFX graphics and
JavaFX Script.

- Josh

On Dec 17, 2008, at 10:05 AM, jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org wrote:

> richard you're my biggest fan/stalker :)
>
> FWIW i also think fx has nothing to do with swing, i understand the
> swing 2.0 comment as 'something better than swing that you should
> use instead of swing' which at the moment is misleading at best. I
> *think* the node based controls they are working on might be
> interesting, but i've been disappointed by sun more than i've been
> nicely surprised.
>
> The problem is that we won't have any choice, it's gonna be either
> you get on the fx train or you're going to get stuck with a
> framework they won't support (swing) for a language they won't
> evolve (java). Maybe fx will be viable some day who knows, at v2 or
> 3, if we can use it transparently in swing/java and the tools/
> runtime are good enough (far from it at the moment).
>
> Remy
> [Message sent by forum member 'liquid' (liquid)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=322191
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: jdnc-unsubscribe@jdnc.dev.java.net
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>

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kleopatra
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Joined: 2003-06-11

> It is true that JavaFX does have a lot of cool
> features but does
> replace Swing

assuming that there's a "not" missing (Freudian omission ?:) then why that FX.equals(Swing2)? Which - as I remember - only happened afterthe uproar following the announcement of Sun dropping SwingX funding was moved to the front page. Trying to rape in foreign goods (okay too lazy to go for a translation - in German I would say "mit fremden Federn schmücken")?

Jeanette

kirillcool
Offline
Joined: 2004-11-17

> Trying to rape in foreign goods (okay too lazy to go for a
> translation - in German I would say "mit fremden
> Federn schmücken")?

Was that supposed to be "drape" instead? The always helpful Internet says "to adorn oneself with borrowed plumes".

http://www.dict.cc/german-english/sich+mit+fremden+Federn+schm%FCcken.html

kleopatra

jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org schrieb:
>> Trying to rape in foreign goods (okay too lazy to go for a
>> translation - in German I would say "mit fremden
>> Federn schmücken")?
>
> Was that supposed to be "drape" instead? The always helpful Internet says "to adorn oneself with borrowed plumes".
>

ehem ... probably thought something like "reap" badly mispelled, dooh.
Thanks for doing the lookup I should have done :-)

Cheers
Jeanette

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osbald
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Joined: 2003-06-13

If that uninformed conjecture rattled your cage what do you make of: http://unimplemented.blogspot.com/2008/12/my-take-aways-from-devoxx-2008...

kleopatra
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-11

which part

My point is that principally it's a good idea to tackle Swing2 - provided power and flexibility is conserved and evolved, I don't care about the cage it's sitting in - just don't pretend it's anywhere near, neither right now nor in a foreseable future.

BTW, an interesting side-effect of the planned modularization in jdk7 might be the potential for slacking on the backward compatibility, as clients can pull-in whatever version they need (at least that's how I understood a fellow developer's explaination on the flight back to Berlin )

Cheers
Jeanette

osbald
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-13

>My point is that principally it's a good idea to tackle Swing2 - provided power
>and flexibility is conserved and evolved, I don't care about the cage it's sitting in

When I referred to the article I was thinking more of the 'forced migration' issue you'd raised.

Dislike the Swing2 moniker, because it suggests some kind of compatibility with Swing (1.0) and Java which doesn't hold water.. hence the forced march. Would prefer JFX2.0. In fact JavaFX objects seem like a much more a remote country than I was expecting. Dislike how JavaFX quietly pollutes its objects with a bunch of 'FX related cruft, making the same mistakes EJB1&2 made with its invasive frameworks. Can't see the JavaFX Script<->Java integration at all yet (given bindings/properties issue put off till JDK8?). Wonder if it'll play second fiddle to JavaFX<->Javascript integration (not a decision I'd care to make). Won't stop me complaining should the wrong choice be made though

Are you involved in the design of these JFX2.0 components at all? that'd be the most perfect new gig I could think of right now.. Oi! Richard, Amy..

> BTW, an interesting side-effect of the planned modularization in jdk7 might be
> the potential for slacking on the backward compatibility,

You mean like my question http://www.pushing-pixels.org/?p=931#comments

Another side effect my be that bundling ad-hoc java.net projects in the runtime for JDK7 doesn't continue to make much logical sense http://java.dzone.com/articles/java-7-update-mark-reinhold-de#comment-9069 ?

In fact it you were serious about desktop Java you might question if JWS quite up-to-scratch. I see overlaps with JWS and the Jigsaw OSGI modularized bundle view of things. Aside from JWS horrid UX experience & warnings If we're talking about installed applications what would be really useful is something more akin to the .Net shared assembly concept. How many copies of the same old jars jakarta commons, rome, sunstance, swingx libs do users need? and signed by how many different parties? If we could shared pre-signed bundles and have something like a gem to host them from?
Lack of distinction in users eyes 'tween really signed resources and self-signed I think is a security issue that may come home to roost at some point. But that's more a sucky JWS UX issue.

kleopatra
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-11

>
> Are you involved in the design of these JFX2.0
> components at all? that'd be the most perfect new gig
> I could think of right now.. Oi! Richard, Amy..

no, I'm not - guess the "young guys riding straight into the future" (very loosely cited from Richard's bof) don't like playing with grandmas

Cheers
Jeanette

osbald
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-13

Did liken the situation with Swing to AWT http://java.dzone.com/articles/java-7-update-mark-reinhold-de#comment-9165

Back in 1998 if you were writing AWT apps (and I was) when Swing came along. It was hugely distributive, but at the time everyone was painfully aware of AWTs limitations and Swings superiority was crystal-clear. Sure it was slow, very slow and buggy, really, really, really buggy to start with but eventually worth the pain. I'm not getting that vibe at all from JavaFX so much of the complete picture is hidden from me.

Am I right in thinking Swings Look&Feel & delegates don't apply to JavaFX. JavaFX applies a single configurable Look&Feel, a cross-platform ubiquitous one. In which case it shuts the door on anybody wanting a platform native looking application or wanting to follow the platforms HCI guidelines? are all JavaFX apps to be forced glam-rock ones? Which would mandate a move to SWT rather JavaFX if platform consistency/branding was important to you & your customers? consistency being one of the cornerstones to most UI design texts.

Once you've added all the swing widgets to JavaFX, added all the asynchronous methods and concurrency hooks. Will it still be simple & easy to use or start looking more and more like the Swing codebase as time passes? Will we have a return to the dreadful Swing 1.2 transition too look forward too?

kleopatra
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Joined: 2003-06-11

funny that Swing's initial slowness keeps to be pointed out - and funny that I didn't experience it (except at startup, and that could be smoothed): at that time I worked in a non-profit organization which had _really_ slow machines. But then, maybe the expectation wasn't too high, and never showed them anything in awt (which wouldn't have been an option, had to do scientific data visualization, writing my nth x-y graphing framework ;)

> Once you've added all the swing widgets to JavaFX,
> added all the asynchronous methods and concurrency
> hooks. Will it still be simple & easy to use or start
> looking more 7 more like the Swing codebase as time
> passes? Will we have a return to the dreadful Swing
> 1.2 transition too look forward too?

we'll see - what do you think my guess on that would be

CU
Jeanette

osbald
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-13

> funny that Swing's initial slowness keeps to be pointed out - and funny that I didn't
> experience it

I think for us it was direct comparison with native apps & AWT and the machine specs at the time, Windows 98, 500mhz, 128mb RAM would've have been considered a top flight desktop (think mine was more like 233mhz). Most complaints were about how hard it was getting Swing in Applets as ie4 had just killed off Netscape and the browser dominant MSJVM never made it past 1.1.

Plus fudgly coding while programmers tried to get their heads around the new APIs & EDT. Some might say we're still learning that one. Funny how you see the same things come around, what was old is new again. It's like Spore, you see the evolution from hello world, to lunar lander, to pac-man via scribbing with mouse http://netbeans.dzone.com/news/drawing-a-path-48-lines-with-j

kleopatra

jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org schrieb:
>
> Funny how you see the same things come around, what was old is new again.

sure sign we get oldish

Jeanette

PS: to me presonally this FX thingy feels a lot like VB/A in the 90s -
all promises and cute for the mainstream but with walls as long and high
as the Chinese when it comes to harder stuff

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evickroy
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Joined: 2004-07-23

For the Swing Binding repository:

JGoodies Binding
https://binding.dev.java.net/

tbee
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Joined: 2003-07-23

Why is everybody so negative. We have the oppertunity to start over again; you want painters? Well... JavaFX 1.0 does hardly contain any components, so lets think of a basic frame and starting building some. I'm in!

coxcu
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Joined: 2003-06-11

I don't really understand their plans, either. Perhaps the thought is to do language-level properties and binding at the same time to make sure the combination is everything it should be. In the mean time, I propose making this thread a repository for other ways to meet your binding needs. I've had good success with Bean Properties and Glazed Lists. The language-level binding capabilities of the early F3/JavaFX Swing demos were quite impressive. I wonder how many of them still run with the current incarnation.

Bean Properties
https://bean-properties.dev.java.net/tutorial3.html

Glazed Lists
http://sites.google.com/site/glazedlists/documentation/tutorial

osbald
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Joined: 2003-06-13

So long as it dosn't suffer the same side effects as discussed in http://java.dzone.com/articles/java-7-update-mark-reinhold-de#comment-9113 & via gregs blog on client-objects http://tinyurl.com/6neuht ..dislike the use of bootclassspath use here, not very JWS friendly.

Also interested in how to minimise my risk looking (much) further ahead http://java.dzone.com/articles/java-7-update-mark-reinhold-de#comment-9162 (second paragraph rant) If the gateway & archives weren't busted you could see on the beanbindings list I was asking Richard so what next for 295? If he won't pull it from Netbeans will they at least support it and fix it's most painful bugs or at very least assign a new maintainer and/or open it up.

Even though 295 is busted using a binding approach in your Swing apps ought in theory at least allow you to develop models that JavaFX could utilize.

osbald
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-13

BTW Rémy Rakic had a very early crack at JavaFX in Swing integration today http://flickr.com/photos/48188729@N00/3112302335/, http://twitter.com/lqd/status/1060495035

liquid
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Joined: 2005-06-16

richard you're my biggest fan/stalker :)

FWIW i also think fx has nothing to do with swing, i understand the swing 2.0 comment as 'something better than swing that you should use instead of swing' which at the moment is misleading at best. I *think* the node based controls they are working on might be interesting, but i've been disappointed by sun more than i've been nicely surprised.

The problem is that we won't have any choice, it's gonna be either you get on the fx train or you're going to get stuck with a framework they won't support (swing) for a language they won't evolve (java). Maybe fx will be viable some day who knows, at v2 or 3, if we can use it transparently in swing/java and the tools/runtime are good enough (far from it at the moment).

Remy

pron
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Joined: 2005-02-11

I don't know. I've spent some time playing with JFX, and as far as the language goes, at least, it seems pretty slick to me, and very well suited to GUI development.
Sure, the controls aren't there yet, but the foundation seems pretty well thought-out to me - object literals, binding, sequences, comprehensions, closures, and the fact that everything is on the EDT. Just seems to me like a great DSL for GUI.

kirillcool
Offline
Joined: 2004-11-17

> and the fact that everything is on the EDT.

Yes, who wouldn't like to have a frozen UI while it's connecting to a server over a slow connection. Wait, hasn't this happened at JavaOne keynote this year? That was a real blast.

pron
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Joined: 2005-02-11

No, it has its own version of SwingWorker that uses closures. And you got the same problem with Swing.

kirillcool
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Joined: 2004-11-17

Care to point to an example or documentation?

pron
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Joined: 2005-02-11

Sure.
Here's an example from one of the official tutorials: http://www.javafx.com/docs/tutorials/mediabrowser/module3_task1.jsp
It concentrates on the special case of retrieving data over an http connection, but this is the common case for RIA.
And here's an example for the general case: http://blogs.sun.com/clarkeman/entry/javafx_async_operations
Note that you code the actual async operation in Java, which actually makes sense, because FX is only for GUI.

Message was edited by: pron

kirillcool
Offline
Joined: 2004-11-17

> Here's an example from one of the official tutorials:
> http://www.javafx.com/docs/tutorials/mediabrowser/modu
> le3_task1.jsp
> It concentrates on the special case of retrieving
> data over an http connection, but this is the common
> case for RIA.

I don't see anything explicitly talking about asynchronous execution that doesn't block the UI thread.

> And here's an example for the general case:
> http://blogs.sun.com/clarkeman/entry/javafx_async_oper
> ations
> Note that you code the actual async operation in
> Java, which actually makes sense, because FX is only
> for GUI.

I would argue whether this makes sense, but this example is closer to answer my question.

However, i still don't see anything to back up the "own version SwingWorker that uses closures" statement.

pron
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Joined: 2005-02-11

Look at EmployeeLoad in that second example (using AbstractAsyncOperation).
I'd argue it's better than SwingWorker, but it definitely isn't any worse.

kleopatra
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Joined: 2003-06-11

>
> I don't understand Sun's plans.
>

probably not overly much there to understand Keep in mind that they seem to be awfully thin spread as far as swing goes - the enthusiasts work on FX and the others ... left. Not that I had any insight, being and always having been the alien from outer space - so this is my personal guessing game

Cheers
Jeanette

osbald
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Joined: 2003-06-13

Has Jasper similarly alienated himself moving back to the UK? Still interested in his Nimbus designer, assuming it's still very much a Painter designer and with SwingX painters apparently getting the go for JDK7.0 would be a nice to have. Sounds bogged down though http://www.jasperpotts.com/blog/2008/12/devoxx-2008/#comment-1352 no chance of SwingLabs getting a copy?

kleopatra
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Joined: 2003-06-11

editor's daily blog picked this thread up:

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/editors/archives/2008/12/only_hope.html

Couldn't resist commenting there

Jeanette

osbald
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Joined: 2003-06-13
evickroy
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Joined: 2004-07-23

Makes me really glad that we stayed with JGoodies Binding while waiting for a final JSR295 release.