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The New Patch-In-Place Feature

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rogyeu
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Joined: 2006-07-30
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The download number for the 6u11 dummy build is fairly small. Please try this feature if you haven't already as the dummy build will be pulled shortly. Your responses matter to us in evaluating the effectiveness of this EA program.

In Java SE 6 Update 10, we introduce a new Patch-In-Place feature which provides a cleaner and faster upgrade experience. This feature reduces the download size when a user migrates from one update release to another, and it will also increase the performance of the update. After updating from 6u10 to 6u11, the user will only be left with one 6u11 JRE.

Please see http://jdk6.dev.java.net/testPIP.html for more information.

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demonduck
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Joined: 2008-03-14
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When I run --
http://pancyl.com/LakeMary_1.htm

in IE6, the java_args in the applet tag makes the JVM allocate the memory I ask for which if you look at the tag is:

Here's from the Java Console in IE6:
PanCyl v0.3.0.d -- Tilt
Memory: 390,208K Free: 319,537K (81%) ... completed.

When I run in FF2 I get:
PanCyl v0.3.0.d -- Tilt
Memory: 97,600K Free: 25,450K (26%) ... completed.

So that's a bummer. Take a look at the difference between IE6 and FF2 WRT how
the java_arguments parameter works.

rogyeu
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Joined: 2006-07-30
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Thanks for the testing feedback.

Your testing behavior is expected:
In your first test, 6u11 is patching 6u10. After the upgrade to 6u11, there's only 1 Java Platform installed. Therefore, when you remove it, you are removing the entire platform. But I'm sure there is still room for enhancement.

In your 2nd install of 6u11, since there's no 6u10 exist; therefore, you will see the change destination option.

New Java Plug-In will not be used when user are using FF2. Passing JVM arguments through your applet tag is a new feature only available through the new Java Plug-In with support platform (see note: http://jdk6.dev.java.net/plugin2 ). For users who use FF2, you need to tell them to configure their runtime environment like you did:
http://pancyl.com/memoryhelp.com

Just a reminder, the 6u11-b00 is generated only for the purpose for testing PIP. We recommend you to test with latest 6u10 build (b32).

demonduck
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Joined: 2008-03-14
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> Thanks for the testing feedback.

> New Java Plug-In will not be used when user are using
> FF2. Passing JVM arguments through your applet tag is
> a new feature only available through the new Java
> Plug-In with support platform (see note:
> http://jdk6.dev.java.net/plugin2 ). For users who use
> FF2, you need to tell them to configure their runtime
> environment like you did:
> http://pancyl.com/memoryhelp.com
>
> Just a reminder, the 6u11-b00 is generated only for
> the purpose for testing PIP. We recommend you to test
> with latest 6u10 build (b32).

I've been using 6u10b32 since it was released. It's shows
the same behavior as 6u11 WRT memory allocation.

But I want to say again, java_arguments do work in IE6 which
seems to me to be generally inferior to FF2. Is there no way
to support FF2 with the new plugin?

Lack of FF2 support has been explained to me numerous times
but it the lack of FF2 support will generate a lot of negative opinion
of Java6NG.

kirillcool
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Joined: 2004-11-17
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> Lack of FF2 support has been explained to me numerous
> times but it the lack of FF2 support will generate a lot of
> negative opinion of Java6NG.

That is a subjective opinion. I am tracking user stats on two technical sites (my blog and one of my projects), and the numbers are: of all Firefox users, 88% use 3.0+ versions, and only 12% use 2.0+ versions.

Do you have any numbers to back up your claim about the impending negative opinion on 6u10 because of the lack of support for Firefox 2? Are you tracking users visiting your site?

demonduck
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Joined: 2008-03-14
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Oh, well your two sites certainly present an even handed profile of
browser usage -- NOT!

My numbers can beat up your numbers.

According W3Counter --
http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php

FF2 users are 58% of FF users [FF1.5 - FF3]

I don't track users. I just get email telling me my applet sucks 'cause it
doesn't run because it runs out of memory and it's my fault, you see, because
the users aren't capable of setting JVM runtime parameters in the Java
Control Panel.

So what the heck -- why support a popular browser anyway? Why not
just support IE6/7/8 and to Hell with all the rest....

You win -- I'm wrong.

kirillcool
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Joined: 2004-11-17
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> Oh, well your two sites certainly present an even handed profile of
> browser usage -- NOT!
>
> My numbers can beat up your numbers.

Ken,

No need for inflammatory rhetoric (which already resulted in ignored messages in Java2D forums). I showed the numbers that i have, without saying that they represent the entire web user population. This is not a contest (vis-a-vis your last statement) - unless you do not want to have a civilized dialogue between two developers.

And speaking rationally - the Plugin team has made it clear that older browsers (such as IE6 / FF2) will not be supported. You can either live with the limitations of this technology and pass them to your users, or choose another technology (Flash, Silverlight, ...) that provides better support for your target audience.

demonduck
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Piffle... They don't respond to my questions because they don't have good answers.

As for supporting old browsers -- with 6u11, IE6 supports java_arguments parameter in the applet tag but FF2 doesn't. So the I'm confused as to the "...old browsers..." stance of
the DevTeam. The PIP is a really good idea but my applet really needs more memory
than the default memory allocation. So if they could just support the java_arguments param in the applet tag in FF2 -- that would be huge for me.

rogyeu
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Joined: 2006-07-30
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It is really unnecessary to insult others to get your issues fixed.

Just to clarify:
- Before 6u10, your users have to configure the runtime memory themselves because you cannot pass VM settings through an Applet. That's why you have http://pancyl.com/memoryhelp.htm on your website.
- With 6u10, we have decided the New Java Plug-Into will support IE 6, 7, and FF 3. This is a technical decision that is based on the constraints of FF2.
- Most importantly, as we told you before, the VM argument setting via Control Panel cannot be passed to the classic Java Plug-In runtime env is due to the version string (CR 6737531 and other related issues). It will not affect GA release (see post: http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=45553&tstart=15 ). Therefore, your users who are using 6u7 or 6u10 with Firefox 2 should not experience any major differences. They still need to configure their own VM settings through Java Control Panel. This matches the behavior of 6u7.
- Lastly, if you want your user to experience a more seamless experience, you may suggest them to use IE 6, 7, and FF3 with 6u10.

demonduck
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Joined: 2008-03-14
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It is really unnecessary to insult me in response to imaginary insults you, for some reason,
manufacture for your own self satisfaction. Lighten up!

I am aware of each issue you have repeatedly raised. And I repeatedly raise the point
that not supporting FF2 is a wrong headed engineering decision that will generate
negative opinions of Java from those users who don't or can't upgrade to FF3.

You repeatedly state the view that FF2 is old browser technology and still support IE6
which is even older. That's what I don't understand. And based on over 25 years of
programming in very difficult software environments, I find it hard to believe that it is
simply not possible to support FF2. I just don't believe it.

So if you find it insulting that I don't respect your engineering decision to not support
FF2 -- too bad.

demonduck
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Joined: 2008-03-14
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Tried your PIP -- good idea. Patch In Place is a smart way to do updates.

It installed as you said it would. But I see you are still pimping for Yahoo's Toolbar.
Yahoo sucks! Why would you want to associate yourself's with Yahoo. If you are
going to suck up to somebody -- suck up to Google.

Then when I uninstalled 6u11 from the Add/Remove control panel, it uninstalled 6u10
and left me with 6u7. I don't like that so much.

Microsoft Windows 2000 [Version 5.00.2195] SP4
(C) Copyright 1985-2000 Microsoft Corp.

So I used the PIP installer a second time and got 6u11 reinstalled. The second time
through, I got the Welcome Screen with the Change destination folder checkbox but
I still got 6u11 installed ok.

The good news is that java_arguments now work in applets with 6u11 where as it didn't
work in 6u10.