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Java WebStart (JNLP), JavaFX on 64-bit machines

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kermitas
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Joined: 2007-02-24
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Hello.

I am using 64bit Java now. I see that Java WebStart is not supported on 64-bit machines ! If JNLP is not supported then JavaFX applets will be also not supported !
(Please correct me if I am wrong.)

After installing 64bit Java (6u10 RC2) even applets does not working (FireFox 3.0, IE7).

I think that 64bits machines, 64bits operating systems and JavaFX is a near future. Do you have any information when 64bit Java will be fully workable ?

Thanks.
PS : I see that Java Control Panel (javacpl.exe) is also missing, probably it never was there ! :( Why ? When it will be fixed ?

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sunburned
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> You're right. 64-bit isn't generally "out there" -
> it's mainly a server thing I guess, though my company
> isn't running 64-bit servers.

I think you're a little outdated on this point. Check out Best Buy:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=pcmcat143400050013&type=category

A lot of the machines are 4GB with 64 bit Vista.

>> Who is selling the average customer 64 bit versions
>> of Windows?

>Weasels that prey on people that don't know much about computers.

You may be right about the character of the vendors. :)

mthornton
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Joined: 2003-06-10
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Who is selling the average customer 64 bit versions of Windows?
As far as I can see, the [b]average[/b] customer is still using 32 bit Windows XP, or occasionally Vista.

swpalmer
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> Who is selling the average customer 64 bit versions
> of Windows?

Weasels that prey on people that don't know much about computers.

> As far as I can see, the [b]average[/b] customer is
> still using 32 bit Windows XP, or occasionally Vista.

You're right. 64-bit isn't generally "out there" - it's mainly a server thing I guess, though my company isn't running 64-bit servers. All the new Macs are 64-bit, but they have other issues when it comes to Java support... Java 6 on Mac is ONLY 64-bit :-).
I think Sun didn't screw up the priorities - this time.

kermitas
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Joined: 2007-02-24
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Intel Nehalem processors will be soon on the market (November 2008) with their 3 channels RAM model, every one minimum 1GB ... and we are really near to point that 64 bit computers will go to masses.

mthornton
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The hardware has been available for years, but Java is by no means the only shortcoming with respect to 64 bit client software. To take one example, while Microsoft's search engine runs on 64 bit Vista, I understand that many of the file filters are still 32 bit only. This means that files which can be indexed under 32 bit Vista are excluded when running the 64 bit version.

demonduck
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Joined: 2008-03-14
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> [b]
> I don't remember how often I ask for activly working
> on OpenJDK, but that was always ignored.
> So, it seems you (guys) prefer bashing Sun, instead
> of getting hands on
> [/b]

I have an idea -- why don't you ask all of SUN's Java Dev Team
to quit their jobs and devote full time to OpenJDK. I mean why
should all those experienced Java programmers hold out on you?

Those guys are really selfish and just don't see how working
for free would help you I guess...

sunburned
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> After all, instead of spreading poison why don't you
> get your hands on the code?

What about the thousands of hours I've spent making useful java applications? That doesn't count?

> Maybe I sound a bit rude, sorry for that. The reason
> is I've read posts like yours ... well ... I guess
> since I started java development in 1998. Exactly the
> same, just the topic was different.
> If Sun won't do that, Java will die, Java is missing
> these and that and its Sun's fault, If I would have
> been Sun I would have done....
> Looking back to 2000 the only thing I can see is that
> Sun did really well, and most things got a lot better
> since then.

Well, take a look _forward_ from 2000 and see what Sun's stock price is -- it closed at $4.20 Friday. And that's after a 1:4 reverse split last year.

Sun has done nothing but demonstrate incredible shortsightedness and lack of commitment over the period of YEARS that they have ignored this request from java users. Take JavaFX, for example. Sun starts touting this as a great way forward, the next new thing for the future, but they don't support it on the 64 bit platform of the future. That's not showing much commitment to their own product.

And shortsighted? How about noticing the fact that RAM prices have plunged almost as fast as Sun's stock price, making systems with more than 4GB of RAM affordable, or the fact that all the desktop processors made for the last few YEARS have been 64 bit. In this time period, Sun has not just been sitting on their thumbs, they have actively disregarded repeated, pleading requests from java users to include webstart and plugin functionality in the 64 bit java packages. Often, this disregard has taken the form of condescending, arrogant dismissal of the significance of users trying to explore the (once) new technological horizons available in 64 bit operating systems.

Furthermore, take a look at the fact that there is no 64 bit flash plugin for Adobe. If Sun would have listened to their users, JavaFX would have had a tremendous advantage over flash in the arriving 64-bit era. But no, not only did Sun squander a great opportunity, they completely dissed the very developers who could have helped seize it for them. If it weren't so tragic, the magnitude of Sun's mishandling of this issue would be impressive -- you know, kind of like shooting themselves in both feet with one shot.

I suggest to all Sun's elite java gurus responsible for this mess that they go and take a look through the electronic browser windows of their crumbling Ivory Towers and read the posts on the bug report:

http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=4802695

Out of all the posts, and all the users who voted on the bug, one or two of them might actually be in a position to buy a lot of servers someday. How many of them will feel any compelling loyalty to choose Sun servers after the way they have been treated FOR YEARS?

Sun owes more than just a 2009 release of a fix, they owe java users an apology.

demonduck
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>Sun owes more than just a 2009 release of a fix, they owe java users an apology.

Will you take an IOU?

Maybe you should file an RFE -- and then we'll vote on it -- and then someone will close it
-- and then someone will reassign it -- then someone will say that it's a duplicate of
another .........

You might as well be talking to a rock.

lilianne_blaze
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> On the client, well, if you don't have valid numbers its just an opinion, as is mine.

Even if it was only 0.5%, 0.5% of a very-large-number is still quite-a-large-number.

> Is it really that "hackish" to just install the 32-bit version of the JRE?

For an average end-user who bought 64-bit computer with 64-bit OS and is convinced it means "twice as good, twice as fast, everything else is obsolete"? Yes it is.

> the 32-bit version works just fine and if you use 32-bit IE/FireFox there's even no problem with the plugin.

Again, it's not a problem for me, it's a problem for end-users I'm selling my software to, of whom some quite literally laugh at me because they perceive Java as obsolete.

> After all, instead of spreading poison why don't you get your hands on the code? There's always work to do and I guess that would be more useful instead of crying arround how bad everything is.

It's statements like "It's open source, modify it yourself" that are, as you said, "poisonous". First, basically it's a not-so-polite way of saying "we don't care, go away". Second, I'm willing to bet three months income there were submitted patches for 64-bit support that got rejected because there was some in-house solution "in progress", I've seen it happen in all kinds of semi-open projects from 3-people ones to ones comparable to Java in size. Third, you're a programmer, aren't you? So you must be aware that different types of software require completely different sets of skills and knowledge. You might be best of the best in your field, or even two or three fields, and still don't know a thing about some other field.

> Maybe I sound a bit rude, sorry for that. The reason is I've read posts like yours ... well ... I guess since I started java development in 1998.

I can't give you an exact year, but I started shortly before 1.1 came out. It doesn't make my comments any less or any more valid.

> If Sun won't do that, Java will die, Java is missing these and that and its Sun's fault

You're _so_ missing the point.

Again, it's not "that" or "these", it's WORA which is - at least was - supposed to be the essence of Java.

> I don't remember how often I ask for activly working on OpenJDK, but that was always ignored.
So, it seems you (guys) prefer bashing Sun, instead of getting hands on

Again, some of us specialize. Telling someone who specializes in (for example) graphics engines or distributed data processing to rewrite a browser plugin is like telling a carpenter to fix your tv.

swpalmer
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>> Is it really that "hackish" to just install the 32-bit version of the JRE?

>For an average end-user who bought 64-bit computer with 64-bit OS and is convinced it means "twice as good, twice as fast, everything else is obsolete"? Yes it is.

How many of your other apps are 64-bit?
64-bit is nothing more than a buzz word for consumer PC users. Everything they run is still 32-bit anyway, and they don't have a need for 64-bit even if they wre running 64-bit apps.

It also doesn't matter how big a number 0.5% turns out to be, as a business decision I would still choose to target the 99.5% ;-)

kermitas
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Average customer is very simple, he/she bought 64bits machine, he/she have 64bit OS and he/she will install 64bit Java.

And who is in big troubles ? He/she or we, as a programmers who "wrote once ON PC and can't run ON PC".

swpalmer
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The "average customer" doesn't even know what 64-bit means, and probably doesn't know if they have a 64-bit machine or not.

Either way, my original statement remains valid - most of the programs they are running are 32-bit.. it isn't a big deal if Java is too.

This is of course speaking in generalities about consumer PCs... I would be irritated too if my particular application needed 64-bit and WebStart to work.

With regard to comments about the Bug Parade. I like it. I've submitted several issues, most of them have been addressed. Some of them haven't. Sometimes I understand the reasons that issues are still unresolved, sometimes I don't.. but I don't pretend to have all the relevant information to be in a position to decide what doesn't get fixed.

robilad
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OpenJDK 6 is based on OpenJDK 7. See http://blogs.sun.com/darcy/entry/forward_to_the_past for its history.

JDK 6 is not based on OpenJDK 6 - the code for JDK 6 has been branched off before OpenJDK 7, from which OpenJDK 6 was branched off.

In pictures:

OpenJDK 7 (next Java release, open source for sure)
^
|
|----> OpenJDK 6 (totally open source)
|
[here be lawyers]
|
|----> JDK 6 (still not open source, but production ready) ----> 6u10 [x] you are here
|
|----> JDK 5 (not open source)

cowwoc
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I'm afraid I must agree with linuxhippy here. 64-bit support is very important *but* there are good workarounds already (for example, you can install both 32-bit and 64-bit JVMs on the same machine). Granted Sun recommends against this (they'd rather you wait for Java7) but it *does* work today.

Another point is that there are many other issues which are as important, but have no workarounds. For example, I believe that Java6 Update 10 was a *huge* step forward for Sun. I absolutely agree with them that it was more important than 64-bit support.

I agree with other posters though, that Sun should invest more aggressively in fixing BugParade so it is easier to use and more responsive to user requests. The existing system is simply an exercise in futility :(

kermitas
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> I'm afraid I must agree with linuxhippy here. 64-bit support is very important *but* there are good workarounds already (for example, you can install both 32-bit and 64-bit JVMs on the same machine). Granted Sun recommends against this (they'd rather you wait for Java7) but it *does* work today.

There is no good workaround if you provide your application via Java WebStart/JNLP/Applet if you have thousands of unknown customers. You can not call them and order to install 32bit JVM.

> Another point is that there are many other issues which are as important, but have no workarounds. For example, I believe that Java6 Update 10 was a *huge* step forward for Sun. I absolutely agree with them that it was more important than 64-bit support.

I have to agree. But all those small and long pains make that everyday java looses many customers and programmers.

> I agree with other posters though, that Sun should invest more aggressively in fixing BugParade so it is easier to use and more responsive to user requests. The existing system is simply an exercise in futility

We well be in haven if they fix all bugs. Life could be so much better without all those workarounds.
Maybe then don't want to fix bugs because they afraid to break backward compatibility ?

Message was edited by: kermitas

cowwoc
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For what it's worth, it looks like Sun has finally produced a 64-bit version of Java Webstart: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4802695

It doesn't say the release version as of yet but I suspect we're looking at an upcoming Java6 update release.

kirillcool
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Clemens,

> Some bugs cannot be fixed without breaking existing
> apps, and other would require a great deal of work
> for little benefit.

So why are these (10+ years and counting) still open? Mark them as WILL NOT FIX and close.

> Now Java is OpenSource, and it usually doesn't take
> that long to fix a bug. And although there's a great
> deal of administrative overhead, getting the fix in
> is usually not as hard as everybody thinks.

And my point was on the usual "vote for the bugs because this is very important" mantra being repeated over and over again. If the words are not backed up by actions (by either fixing the bugs or marking them as closed with the above resolution), then the words are meaningless. And the more they are repeated, the less weight they are carrying.

Kirill

mthornton
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> Now Java is OpenSource, and it usually doesn't take
> that long to fix a bug. And although there's a great
Unfortunately Sun's WebStart and plugin code has not (yet) been open sourced.

fatbatman
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I think this is a good point, Sun should remind users they can fix the bugs thenself and do all they can to help developers to this end.

mthornton
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While the time to fix can be extremely variable they are definitelynot a waste of time. Occasionally I have had a bug fixed within days of having reported it.

phenderson
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I'm with Kirill Grouchnikov on this one.

The Bug and RFE lists are pure Sun propaganda.

Bug and enhancement requests which have been open for 5-10 YEARS! You have to be kidding me.

Think how much has changed in the software world in that time. If Sun really took the list seriously these items would have been fixed (in code or the bug tracker) a long time ago.

I have long given up on my 3 votes, as f**k all seems to happen.

Just my £0.02 worth, from someone who (mistakenly) thought web start would be available on amd64 machines way back in 2004. (What is the problem, it's just a recompile right?)

Peter Henderson

demonduck
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> I'm with Kirill Grouchnikov on this one.
>
> The Bug and RFE lists are pure Sun propaganda.
>
> Bug and enhancement requests which have been open for
> 5-10 YEARS! You have to be kidding me.
>
> Peter Henderson

Exactly -- the bug list is just a pacifier. Someone finds a show stopper and SUN tells
you to suck on this...

tdanecito
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You got my vote kirillcool.

rdjackson
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openJDK 6 ships with a native 64bit applet plug in for FF. It also ships with a native 64bit JNLP was well but it still has some bugs mostly because it only supports JNLP 1.0 at this point and not the newer 1.5 JNLP. At least on Ubuntu that is.

kermitas
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I heard a lot about OpenJDK 7 but I see that there is also OpenJDK 6.

So if JDK6 is based on OpenJDK 6 then missing components are for Windows and OS X, right ?

But I think that JDK6 is not based on OpenJDK 6.

If somebody wants to destroy market completely then the best way is to produce a lot of different versions of JVM/JRE/JDK.

robilad
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removed dupe

Message was edited by: robilad

lilianne_blaze
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I'd really love to know WT* you guys at Sun were thinking when you decided to delay 64-bit client support, you lost a huge amount of both customers and developers, that was suicidal :/

If I were you I'd stop _everything_ I was doing and redirect _all_ resources to get it done ASAP and then sat down and thought really hard how all that lost trust could be regained. You lost lots of reputation, and some of us - Java developers - lost lots of reputation too by promoting a technology which in the eyes of our - and by extension yours - customers is clearly flawed as it doesn't support today's hardware.

L

linuxhippy
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> I'd really love to know WT* ..... If I were you I'd stop _everything_ I was doing and
> redirect _all_ resources to get it done ASAP and then

There are many wishes and also sun-internal requirements Sun has to statisfy, so instead of shouting arround your favourite feature/bug-fix you should start working on it.

Thanks god your are not Sun, otherwise I guess we would not have seen JDK6u10, but instead a 64-bit client JVM with plugin .... used by the, let me guess, 0.5% of all end-users running Vista-64 bit.
Now just think about how many end-users are running a 64-bit OS, and even then, except for the browser-plugin how really needs a 64-bit client jvm, the 32-bit one still works perfect.

So it really all depends on the point-of-view, maybe yours is blurred ;)

lilianne_blaze
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Four words.

"Write once, run anywhere".

Rings a bell?

I'd strongly disagree it's only 0.5%. Plus, that number is getting higher every day. I am aware there are some hackish ways to to it now, but they're completely unsuitable for end users. This is not a "favorite bug", this is essential show-stopper. At one time WORA was definition of Java, now it's a joke.

L

linuxhippy
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> I'd strongly disagree it's only 0.5%.
For servers its more of course, but there is already a 64-bit JVM, only missing webstart and the plugin.
On the client, well, if you don't have valid numbers its just an opinion, as is mine.

> Plus, that
> number is getting higher every day.
Sure, thats why Sun will soon release the 64-bit plugin stuff

> I am aware there
> are some hackish ways to to it now, but they're
> completely unsuitable for end users.
Is it really that "hackish" to just install the 32-bit version of the JRE?
Even on Servers its often recommended to run it as 32-bit app (well not anymore with CompressedOps), if you don't need more than ~1.5gb heap.

> This is not a
> "favorite bug", this is essential show-stopper. At
> one time WORA was definition of Java, now it's a
> joke.
Don't disqualify yourself with such statements, the 32-bit version works just fine and if you use 32-bit IE/FireFox there's even no problem with the plugin.
After all, instead of spreading poison why don't you get your hands on the code? There's always work to do and I guess that would be more useful instead of crying arround how bad everything is.

Maybe I sound a bit rude, sorry for that. The reason is I've read posts like yours ... well ... I guess since I started java development in 1998. Exactly the same, just the topic was different.
If Sun won't do that, Java will die, Java is missing these and that and its Sun's fault, If I would have been Sun I would have done....
Looking back to 2000 the only thing I can see is that Sun did really well, and most things got a lot better since then.

demonduck
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> Looking back to 2000 the only thing I can see is that
> Sun did really well, and most things got a lot better
> since then.

Yeah, SUN has almost completely eliminated Java on the desktop and
Flash is fantastic. Give SUN a couple of more years and Java will
become the most expensive software development project that nobody
uses. That's something anyway...

linuxhippy
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> Yeah, SUN has almost completely eliminated Java on
> the desktop and Flash is fantastic.
Seems you don't remember the days when devs had to work with java-1.2.2 or a bit better, 1.3

> Give SUN a couple of more years
> and Java will
> become the most expensive software development
> project that nobody
> uses. That's something anyway...
After all, especially after opening just another thread with a constructive title such as"Java is dead" .. simply I don't understand you guys. What are you trying to accomplish, why are you filling these forums with useless stuff like this.
Maybe its me, and my mind is so limited, sorry.

[b]
I don't remember how often I ask for activly working on OpenJDK, but that was always ignored.
So, it seems you (guys) prefer bashing Sun, instead of getting hands on
[/b]

mthornton
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> Maybe its me, and my mind is so limited, sorry.

I agree with you. I wish I had time to contribute more to the development of Java. At the moment I'm limited to a bit of testing (mainly jsr166y and nio).

kermitas
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Thank you for so much information ! :)

Already we have 6u10 RC2.
I am curious when and what is generally planned for 6u11 ??

narve
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All this bickering is rather pointless.

It is a fact that lots of users are using 64-bit OS - regardless of percentage.

Furthermore, power users (like me, at least when it comes to Java) are more likely to use 64-bit operating systems, or perhaps they avoid it because of the annoying lack of 64-bit support.

Making the plugin 64-bit compatible shouldn't be that hard, and making javaws work should be even easier. I guess that it is only strict test requirements that keep this fix so delayed.

Installing a 32-bit JRE in addition to 64-bit JDK (in my case at least) is straight-forward for power users, but it feels rather stupid and messes with an otherwise clean system. And you can be sure that "ordinary" java-users are unable to do this.

Anyway, in my opinion this should be high priority. Please vote for it - although I don't think voting helps that much :(

kermitas
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http://bugs.sun.com/top25_rfes.do

"This is a list of the 25 RFE's (request for enhancements) with the most votes. This list is compiled on a daily basis, so there may be discrepancies between the vote counts in the list below and the vote counts shown in the individual RFE detail pages.."

Votes : 794
Bug ID : 4802695
Synopsis : Support Java Plug-in on 64-bit AMD and Intel

mbien
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just use a 32bit browser and 32bit jre, works pretty well for me. You usually don't need >2GB heap for applets anyway ;)

AFAIK a complete 64bit jre will be available for java 7 and as backport to a java 6 update release next year.

kermitas
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Thank you for your answer.

I asked because I can imagine that in some big company administrator can install on every computer Java 64 just because there is a Vista 64, XP 64 or Linux 64.

Many users will do the same, if they have 64bit OS they will not install 32bit Java (32bit will have meaning "old" or "slow" in their heads).

It it is true that is very bad, that we have to wait until Java 7 :((, it is not even planned !

mbien
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> It it is true that is very bad, that we have to wait until Java 7 :((, it is not even planned !

Sorry to cause confusion, i should read my messages before posting. There really should be a 64bit client VM + webstart support before java 7.

Hotspot is AFAIK an independent project anyway with its own version etc.

I *guess* the reason for the delay is the following:
The client and server VMs have been merged recently in jdk 7 to a common codebase and both build the new "Tiered" VM.
Sun probably is just waiting until everything is stabelized to port the new merged VM to 64bit instead of doing it twice by porting the old code too.

but yes, an official statement would be nice.

kermitas
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If anybody have some information about 64bit VM - please post it (or paste link).

Is there a place where we can vote or write to speed up things ?

linuxhippy
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The only stuff I know is that almost all things are done, and it shouldn't take too long until 64-bit browser plugin as well as 64-bit clirent-jvm will be reality.
Voting or bashing sun won't speed things up in this stage.

- Clemens

kermitas
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Wow :) That is very optimistic information !
Can I ask what is your source ? Is there anything like blog or forum ?

rogerl
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Alright, here is what is currently being planned.

Yes, the 64-bit plugin will be available before JDK7, in an JDK6 update release, sometime after 6u11 and before JDK7. A bit vague I know but I hope it helps answer the question. We would (and I am sure you would as well) like it out sooner then later, and we are working to accomplish that.

To preemptively answer the next question "What release and when will it be out?" I am going to say.....that is still being worked on. Development/testing is still going on and we are not yet comfortable giving any projections on a release date.

I hope that helps and is 'kind of' what you were looking for :)

Lastly, always vote. We do look at the votes, we want you to vote and the votes do, in the long run make a difference. One of the reasons this feature is being added is because of the votes. That said.... additional votes on this feature will not have any impact :) If you have not voted for your favorite RFE (or bug) have at it: http://bugs.sun.com/top25_rfes.do / http://bugs.sun.com/top25_bugs.do

-Roger

kirillcool
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> Lastly, always vote. We do look at the votes, we want
> you to vote and the votes do, in the long run make a
> difference.

How long of a run are we talking about? The second most voted bug is from 1999, and the third most voted bug is from 1998. Words are empty, only the actions count.

demonduck
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> > Lastly, always vote. We do look at the votes, we
> want
> > you to vote and the votes do, in the long run make
> a
> > difference.
>
> How long of a run are we talking about? The second
> most voted bug is from 1999, and the third most voted
> bug is from 1998. Words are empty, only the actions
> count.

I agree with the sentiment. I look at bug reports as a waste of time. Either
the Dev Team is going to fix the problem or point fingers. Usually the
latter...

linuxhippy
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> I agree with the sentiment. I look at bug reports as
> a waste of time. Either
> the Dev Team is going to fix the problem or point
> fingers. Usually the latter...

Of course Sun has its own priorities to, I mean they have buissness to do.
Some bugs cannot be fixed without breaking existing apps, and other would require a great deal of work for little benefit.

However the things have changed. Some years ago lobbying for a fix was the only way you could get something you really needed fixed.
Now Java is OpenSource, and it usually doesn't take that long to fix a bug. And although there's a great deal of administrative overhead, getting the fix in is usually not as hard as everybody thinks.

After all, I think this is completly fair. We get Java for free (and no, .NET is not free - you and your customers buy for it with the OS!) and in exchange help making it better.

So instead of nagging, grab your bug and go on :)

- Clemens

demonduck
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Joined: 2008-03-14
Points: 0

> However the things have changed. Some years ago
> lobbying for a fix was the only way you could get
> something you really needed fixed.
> Now Java is OpenSource, and it usually doesn't take
> that long to fix a bug. And although there's a great
> deal of administrative overhead, getting the fix in
> is usually not as hard as everybody thinks.

That's a good point. To be honest, I've never even looked at what's available
in OpenSource. Where would I look to find low level stuff that
seems to go to native libs? Like from this thread:

http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=48103&tstart=0

>AWT/Swing don't provide any (public) listener interfaces for screen insets changes.
>I think that sun.awt.DisplayChangedListener may be what you need, but it is located
>in >sun.awt package and therefore is inaccessible from unsigned applets.

>The only option that comes to my mind is to query screen insets - with
>Toolkit.getScreenInsets(gc) method - periodically and adjust the window bounds
>accordingly.

I'm seeing a problem when I go full frame on Windows and then
hide the task bar. No event is sent that I can listen for that
would let me resize my applet when that happens.

Where's sun.awt.DisplayChangedListener and related classes?