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Notewothy: Flash content now indexable

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cowwoc
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Joined: 2003-08-24

http://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/07/01/1220232.shtml

I don't want to put the cart before the horse (because applets still have a 0% market-share) but it would be interesting to find out what Adobe is doing for Flash and whether we could do something similar for Applets.

I look forward to the day where you could have a 100% Applet-based websites like we have for Flash, minus the annoyance factor.

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cowwoc
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Joined: 2003-08-24

> > (because applets still have a 0% market-share) but
> it
> Well, was that really nescessary?

This wasn't meant as an insult. I was simply trying to say that there is no real point talking about indexing applets because no one (that I know) to publish their entire website.

It would be really cool if we *could* do that though, because silly little things (like drop-down shadows) take forever to implement in HTML and almost no time in Java. The remaining question is why you'd want to consider implementing this in Java versus Flash. In my case the answer would be "because I know Java better than Flash" but this is a rather poor answer at this time. Yes, Applets run a lot faster than Flash once they load up but this doesn't matter for most usages.

As things stand now, Flash lets you develop good-looking contents in a much more productive matter than Java does. Easier-to-write scripts (JavaFX) is one approach at fixing this but I don't think it's what users really want. We need DreamWeaver-style editors for Applets, similar to Netbeans GUI editor but about 5x better. Matisse brought us a lot closer but it still has some quirks that waste a lot of time (like, sometimes I end up with some unwanted spacing at runtime and I have no idea why it's happening and I have no way to find out!)

fatbatman
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Joined: 2004-12-24

>>90% of all flash "programs" are animated adds

If 90% of the flash market is ads then go after this market.
Sun should develop a free, designer friendly tool for creating simple animations like flash does, with a timeline etc that outputs a jar file.
JavaFX may include something like this but I've never heard mention of a timeline...

>>8% are games
Update 10 will applets to automatically download the Java3D packages.
This means production quality 3d games in the browser. This is a significant factor for games and Sun should make the most of it, organise some games development competitions with prizes to attract game developers back to Java.

mbien
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Joined: 2007-04-29

> >>90% of all flash "programs" are animated adds
>
> If 90% of the flash market is ads then go after this
> market.
> Sun should develop a free, designer friendly tool for
> creating simple animations like flash does, with a
> timeline etc that outputs a jar file.
> JavaFX may include something like this but I've never
> heard mention of a timeline...
Yes, but don't forget java is very strong in heavy lifting. If you want to "develop" flash adds use flash. Java's strength are full featured applications. So try to build RIAs with java... . A timeline tool is just a gimmick which will not speed up overall RIA development time. You don't need multithreading, network capabilities, security and a heavyweight hotspot compiler with at least 30mb footprint in banners. (just my opinion)

>
> >>8% are games
> Update 10 will applets to automatically download the
> Java3D packages.
you can do this with plain Java 6 too ;)

> This means production quality 3d games in the
> browser. This is a significant factor for games and
> Sun should make the most of it, organise some games
> development competitions with prizes to attract game
> developers back to Java.
agreed, even javagaming.org is a slowly stagnating and separated community without any links on java.net or other aggregator sites.

fatbatman
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Joined: 2004-12-24

> you can do this with plain Java 6 too ;)
Yes sorry :)
I only recently learnt there was a way to do that and had forgotten about it.

>Yes, but don't forget java is very strong in heavy lifting. If you want to "develop" flash adds use flash. Java's strength are full featured applications. So try to build RIAs with java...

Your justification for not using Java on smaller apps and animations is that it's footprint is too big and it's too slow starting up, but that's exactly what update 10 was supposed to improve.

>You don't need multithreading, network capabilities, security and a heavyweight hotspot compiler with at least 30mb footprint in banners. (just my opinion)

Flash has all those things.

There's no fundamental reason why Java shouldn't be able to start just as fast as flash with a little more work. Also 30mb is less of a footprint these days.
Remember Flash can now do both fast simple ads and full scale applications.
Java can and should be to do both also.

>A timeline tool is just a gimmick which will not speed up overall RIA development time.
>You don't need multithreading, network capabilities, security and a heavyweight hotspot
>compiler with at least 30mb footprint in banners. (just my opinion)

Well, a timeline is a gimmick for serious application development but for ads and most games the timeline allows you to create stuff very quickly, I'd say the timeline is useful for about 95% of Flash's developers.
For Java to try and win back market share from Flash but only appeal to 5% of it developers will not be enough to make much of a difference in the long term.

Java is so powerful, this tool can be built on top of JavaFX relatively easily because of numerous libraries Java has.

Remember Java is free and open
Flash is closed and costs $699

Get 4 really good developers on it, and in 4 months you'll have something that's a free Flash alternative for the other 95% of Flash developers (designers).

Sun is an engineering company and it has a history of neglecting designers and hence the astetics of applications, the world we live in places great value on the way things look.

Message was edited by: fatbatman

Message was edited by: fatbatman

linuxhippy
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Joined: 2004-01-07

> (because applets still have a 0% market-share) but it
Well, was that really nescessary?

I would look at it from another POV: Java isn't used, when its power is not really needed.
90% of all flash "programs" are animated adds, 8% are games and 2% are RIA apps (like the icq2go service) that don't really work.
Just questerday I tried to chat with my girlfriend using the ICQ2Go service (because icq broke my linux-client), even on my Core2Duo I was able to type faster than letters appeard in the textbox. Wow ... what a crappy piece of software. I switched to the stone-age Java-1.1 based applet and everything was fine :) (except deadlocks from time to time, not sure wether I should reort this to sun or to icq)

lg Clemens

qu0ll
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Joined: 2006-12-09

What does this have to do with Flash or Java? Crappy software developers will develop crappy software in any language.

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-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
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qu0ll
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Joined: 2006-12-09

I agree that this is significant, especially in regard to what we are doing with applets. I plan to investigate exactly how a crawler indexes Flash sites soon.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]