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Am I going mad? Fonts look great in b12!

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qu0ll
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I tend to notice the little things and since installing b12 on this Vista x64 machine there has been a *substantial* improvement in font rendering quality in Java applications. And there's a noticeable improvement in overall graphics rendering performance since b11.

As I haven't heard anywhere that font rendering has changed between b11 and b12 I would like someone to confirm that this has indeed happened. One way or the other, Java fonts (especially Segoe UI) look much better on this machine now and for me this is fantastic!

--
And loving it,

-Q
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Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)

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trembovetski
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I believe this stuff is planned for jdk7.

But you're talking to the wrong people - you'd need to bug
AWT and Swing guys, Java2D has nothing to do with either
of those.

Dmitri

carcour
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I've posted it to the AWT/Swing forum [url]http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=38049[/url]

cowwoc
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"ililililililililiIIIIIII" looks great in b13 though I don't have b12 to compare against :) If anyone happens to have both installed please post before/after screenshots.

kirillcool
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So my first name looks better in b13 than in b12? :)

trembovetski
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Hehehe. =) Yes, that was our main reason to fix this quickly! =)

cowwoc
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There seems to be a bug in font rendering in b13. I'm not sure whether the bug was there before or not or whether this is actually a bug in Netbeans or the underlying JDK but hopefully you can help me narrow this down.

In the attached screenshot, please look at the word "variable" in the highlighted line. Notice the black "holes" in the top-left corner of the "v" and bottom right of the "r".

Netbeans is using Monospace-12, plain as far as I can tell. The holes are only visible if the text background is highlighted with some bright color.

trembovetski
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Thanks for the report. We'll look into this.

Dmitri

trembovetski
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I have filed:
6675287: D3D: regression: occasional artifacts when rendering LCD text

Should be fixed in b14.

Dmitri

trembovetski
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OK, b14 (which has this fix) is out, please try it..

Dmitri

cowwoc
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> OK, b14 (which has this fix) is out, please try it..

Looks good. Thank you :)

Gili

trembovetski
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Hmm. Actually, it's my bad, we had some internal build number reshuffling, so
the fix is actually integrated into b20 =(

Dmitri

cowwoc
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It's weird how this bug comes and goes. For example, I just noticed it in b14, a good two days after upgrading to this build.

b20 is very far away, do you plan on backporting this to b15?

trembovetski
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> b20 is very far away, do you plan on backporting this to b15?

It's not too far away (a week or two) - it's just a weird build naming
stuff that's going on.

Dmitri

trembovetski
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FYI, in the just released b13 there's a fix for the d3d pipeline which improves
the look of the text (by reducing color fringing). You might want to
check it out so see if the text looks even better now..

Thanks,
Dmitri

kirillcool
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Dmitri,

I'm confused. Once you start using native rasterizer, how can you improve it? Aren't you just taking the same exact pixels that it's giving you and painting them back? Once you start down the path of analyzing the pixels and trying to improve them, it's no longer native rasterization.

Kirill

trembovetski
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Well, just compare the rendering of b12 vs b13 (make sure the d3d pipeline is enabled)
and tell us which one you like more.

The fix wasn't to "improve" native rasterizer's rendering, but to address an issue in
how the D3D pipeline used the glyph images provided by native rasterizer when
rendering them.

Dmitri

trembovetski
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An example of the fringing issues could be seen in b12 when rendering
something like "ililililililililiIIIIIII" with say Tahoma.

Dmitri

qu0ll
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Dmitri,

Fonts look fabulous in b13 - I am very happy indeed. Crappy fonts have always been holding Java back on the desktop IMHO so this is a BIG step forward.

Thanks so much!

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)

philrace
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Yes, its the Microsoft rasteriser. See the attached screenshot
which renders Courier New Italic 'w' at 12 pt (aka 9pt @ 96dpi) in three
windows
The top window is the windows native notepad app
The middle window is JDK6 u10 b12 which invokes that same native rasteriser
The bottom window is JDk6 u10 doing its own rasterisation.

I agree that the JDK rasterisation is far superior to the native one but
people seem to prefer the windows one, warts and all.

-phil.

kirillcool
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> I agree that the JDK rasterisation is far superior to
> the native one but people seem to prefer the windows one, warts and
> all.

Phil, with all due respect, the rasterization of Segoe UI 12 points was quite far from being superior.

philrace
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Actually Microsoft sometimes distorts the shapes of glyphs, relative to the B&W cases
So in general I prefer the JDK rasterisation, where I notice a difference at all.

But I was clearly referring to the specific case at hand.

-phil.

kirillcool
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Phil,

This would be a known tradeoff - do you want a rasterizer that performs well on the default fonts, where it benefits the vast majority of the applications, or do you want a rasterizer that performs well on a few corner cases, but results in poor visuals on the default desktop font.

My clear choice would be to say - this is what the native rasterizer does, and our advice is to use another font for this specific component.

philrace
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I have noticed that Vista itself still uses Tahoma in a lot of places.
Its possible that the Swing Windows L&F is fairly consistent with that.
If you can see specific cases where for the same component etc there
is a difference between your vista app and Swing, then file a swing bug.

-phil.

kirillcool
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Phil

Having worked on a Vista machine for the past year, i have to say that the vast majority of Vista applications use Segoe UI as the default font. And if you're looking for an app, i have one word - Eclipse. Granted, it's not a "real" native app, but all the controls are native. The same goes for Firefox, Office and many others.

I've opened a bug in the bugparade.

Thanks
Kirill

rogyeu
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Hi Kirill,

I have opened a bug report your issue. Bug ID: 6669448. It may take a day or two for the bug to show up. But you can track the status here:
http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=6669448

Thanks,
RY

kirillcool
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Thanks.

frank_costanza
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Does anyone know if native font rendering will be available under Linux for update 10?

Doesn't appear to be right now (I'm using b14).

carcour
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Fonts look great in b13 on Windows XP.
Finally we have great fonts in Java no more weird A's
Great job Java team engineers.
The last thing I want to see is improvements to FileDialog one as the currently implementation is flawed and one has to use the JFileChooser which is very slow and doesn't even offer thumbnails (we're in 2008!).

Carl

cowwoc
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I second the motion on FileDialog and JFileChooser. They are one of the most neglected components and many desktop applications need them.

carcour
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We've talked about this over and over but no one seems to answer. [url]http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=233718[/url]
Can anyone from the AWT/Swing team give us a status please?
Guys if you're interested in improving FileDialog vote for this bug:
[url]http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=6192906[/url]

cowwoc
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It seems as if there is a problem rendering "W" both lowercase and uppercase in Monospace 12 Bold + Italics. Netbeans happens to use this font combination in block comments. In any case, the W (especially the lower-case version) looks almost identical to a "v". Uppercase is not much better.

Any ideas?

trembovetski
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Could you post a screen shot of the issue? Is this on XP or Vista?

Dmitri

trembovetski
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Never mind, I see the problem.

kirillcool
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It does look like the Windows LAF is still using Tahoma for everything but menu items. Time to switch to Segoe UI for all controls?

qu0ll
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Yes, it's time. The JGoodies Windows PLAF implementation does correct this and it's time Sun used theirs.

--
And loving it,

-Q
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
(Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me)

cowwoc
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Holy crap, you're right :) It's funny what a big difference a new release makes. Thanks a lot guys!

kirillcool
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cowwoc
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Krill,

Any idea whether Sun plans on fixing FileDialog or JFileChooser anytime soon? Both suffer from numerous usability problems as we've discussed months ago: http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=24710

It's one thing for JFileChooser to look different, since it is based on Swing, but I really see no excuse for FileDialog looking different. Shouldn't it simply delegate to the underlying OS?

kirillcool
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How would i know? I don't work at Sun.

kirillcool
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