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BD-J application question

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randx
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Joined: 2008-01-23
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Hello folks. I am new to this form and have a question regarding BD-J. Let me start by saying I am not a developer but a marketing guy with some pretty deep knowledge about video and display technology.

My company is looking to develop a product of which I can only give a few details. The upshot about which I have a question that shouldn't need too much specific information to answer.

Basically I want to know if the BD 2.0 spec will allow for an application to be published on a Blu Ray disc could be placed in a conforming player, copy this application from the disc to local storage, be maintained in storage after the origin disc is removed, and then the code in storage be used to execute an application to interact with any other disc placed in the player.

My experience and inclination tell me this is unlikely but I have an R&D engineer with lots of C experience but little to no Java experience telling me otherwise. Before committing a budget to research this product I'd like to better understand if it's achievable.

Randy

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randx
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Joined: 2008-01-23
Points: 0

Bill,

I appreciate your response. Regarding your comment about the 'rules of launching and terminating applications'; would there be any place outside of a $2500.00 spec doc that I could use to document that fact internally?

Randy

Bill Foote

bd-j-dev@mobileandembedded.org wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I appreciate your response. Regarding your comment about the 'rules of launching and terminating applications'; would there be any place outside of a $2500.00 spec doc that I could use to document that fact internally?
>
> Randy

Yes, this is discussed in the BD-J Application Model section
of the HD cookbook -- page 16-7, under "When Does an Xlet
get Launched? When is it Killed?" That section of the
book was written by me too, but the book was peer reviewed,
so it's genuinely more authoritative than a discussion forum
posting.

Cheers,

Bill

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randx
Offline
Joined: 2008-01-23
Points: 0

Thanks again

Bill Foote

bd-j-dev@mobileandembedded.org wrote:
> Hello folks. I am new to this form and have a question regarding BD-J. Let me start by saying I am not a developer but a marketing guy with some pretty deep knowledge about video and display technology.
>
> My company is looking to develop a product of which I can only give a few details. The upshot about which I have a question that shouldn't need too much specific information to answer.
>
> Basically I want to know if the BD 2.0 spec will allow for an application to be published on a Blu Ray disc could be placed in a conforming player, copy this application from the disc to local storage, be maintained in storage after the origin disc is removed, and then the code in storage be used to execute an application to interact with any other disc placed in the player.
>
> My experience and inclination tell me this is unlikely but I have an R&D engineer with lots of C experience but little to no Java experience telling me otherwise. Before committing a budget to research this product I'd like to better understand if it's achievable.

Your inclination and experience are entirely correct.

This is a function of the Blu-ray specification. It's quite clear about
how applications get launched and when they're terminated. It's quite
important to ensure that an application can't install itself like that.
The model for Blu-ray is the same as it was for legacy DVD: When you
put a disc in the player, the disc controls playback.

This is pretty unrelated to Java, by the way - the rules of launching
and terminating applications would have been the same no matter the
choice of language or runtime.

Cheers,

Bill

> Randy
> [Message sent by forum member 'randx' (randx)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=255474
>
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Endre Stølsvik

Bill Foote wrote:
> bd-j-dev@mobileandembedded.org wrote:
>> Hello folks. I am new to this form and have a question regarding
>> BD-J. Let me start by saying I am not a developer but a marketing guy
>> with some pretty deep knowledge about video and display technology.
>>
>> My company is looking to develop a product of which I can only give a
>> few details. The upshot about which I have a question that shouldn't
>> need too much specific information to answer.
>>
>> Basically I want to know if the BD 2.0 spec will allow for an
>> application to be published on a Blu Ray disc could be placed in a
>> conforming player, copy this application from the disc to local
>> storage, be maintained in storage after the origin disc is removed,
>> and then the code in storage be used to execute an application to
>> interact with any other disc placed in the player.
>>
>> My experience and inclination tell me this is unlikely but I have an
>> R&D engineer with lots of C experience but little to no Java
>> experience telling me otherwise. Before committing a budget to
>> research this product I'd like to better understand if it's achievable.
>
> Your inclination and experience are entirely correct.
>
> This is a function of the Blu-ray specification. It's quite clear about
> how applications get launched and when they're terminated. It's quite
> important to ensure that an application can't install itself like that.
> The model for Blu-ray is the same as it was for legacy DVD: When you
> put a disc in the player, the disc controls playback.
>

.. and then, when you eject the disc, the player is "clean"? Per
definition, fully and utterly?

What about the BD-Live stuff - what more does that bring to the table?
Can one install stuff to such a player? Could you potentially
access/start some application residing on the internet, then use it to
read a data disc? What if I've bought some extended content through
some movie's internet access features - it must reside on the internet,
and I can only access it if I have the physical disc stuck inside the
player? (How old-skool..!)

(There is way too little information about all these things on the
light-net (e.g. Wikipedia). Put it there. I can only imagine how much
innovation the end users miss out on every day these things are hidden
away behind legacy cabal-style organizations! .. and each of these days
the internet gets faster, and an actual "iMovies" gets nearer!)

Kind regards,
Endre.

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Bill Foote

Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> Bill Foote wrote:
>> bd-j-dev@mobileandembedded.org wrote:
>>> Hello folks. I am new to this form and have a question regarding
>>> BD-J. Let me start by saying I am not a developer but a marketing
>>> guy with some pretty deep knowledge about video and display technology.
>>>
>>> My company is looking to develop a product of which I can only give a
>>> few details. The upshot about which I have a question that shouldn't
>>> need too much specific information to answer.
>>>
>>> Basically I want to know if the BD 2.0 spec will allow for an
>>> application to be published on a Blu Ray disc could be placed in a
>>> conforming player, copy this application from the disc to local
>>> storage, be maintained in storage after the origin disc is removed,
>>> and then the code in storage be used to execute an application to
>>> interact with any other disc placed in the player.
>>>
>>> My experience and inclination tell me this is unlikely but I have an
>>> R&D engineer with lots of C experience but little to no Java
>>> experience telling me otherwise. Before committing a budget to
>>> research this product I'd like to better understand if it's achievable.
>>
>> Your inclination and experience are entirely correct.
>>
>> This is a function of the Blu-ray specification. It's quite clear about
>> how applications get launched and when they're terminated. It's quite
>> important to ensure that an application can't install itself like that.
>> The model for Blu-ray is the same as it was for legacy DVD: When you
>> put a disc in the player, the disc controls playback.
>>
>
> .. and then, when you eject the disc, the player is "clean"? Per
> definition, fully and utterly?

Yes.

The only exception is a "disc unbound" application - that can continue
to live until a new disc is put in the player. If that new disc is not
part of the same disc series, or doesn't contain an explicit data structure
saying the application should keep running, then it's terminated immediately.

It's pretty easy to see why rules like this are essential. Otherwise, you
could make an "MST3K" app that runs over someone else's disc. If you think
about it from the point of view of that someone else, it's easy to see why
this would be unacceptable.

> What about the BD-Live stuff - what more does that bring to the table?
> Can one install stuff to such a player? Could you potentially
> access/start some application residing on the internet, then use it to
> read a data disc? What if I've bought some extended content through
> some movie's internet access features - it must reside on the internet,
> and I can only access it if I have the physical disc stuck inside the
> player? (How old-skool..!)
>
> (There is way too little information about all these things on the
> light-net (e.g. Wikipedia). Put it there. I can only imagine how much
> innovation the end users miss out on every day these things are hidden
> away behind legacy cabal-style organizations! .. and each of these days
> the internet gets faster, and an actual "iMovies" gets nearer!)

I'm not sure if you consider a book published by McGraw/Hill to be
"hiding information" behind a "legacy cabal-style organization." I
guess the art of writing on physical paper does go back a few thousand
years, so perhaps I can't object to the word "legacy," but some
legacies can be worth preserving. IMHO the printing press is one,
and I guess I'd say agriculture and irrigation are also legacy technologies
that still have some applicability, even in the Internet age.

More to the point, of course there are good reasons to release more
information. There are also a number of constraints on what can be
done. At a certain point, if you want to author professional content,
it is simply necessary to have a copy of the full specifications, or to
work together with someone who does. Various folks (myself included)
are working to make more developer information available, but there
will always be a point where people will probably need to spend some
money, e.g. to buy the spec.

Of course, there are certain frustrations working with any big, open
organization like the BDA, and reading and signing licenses isn't my
personal idea of a fun day out either. That said, I think the word
"cabal-style" is misplaced.

Bill

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Endre Stølsvik

> It's pretty easy to see why rules like this are essential. Otherwise,
> you could make an "MST3K" app that runs over someone else's disc. If
> you think about it from the point of view of that someone else, it's
> easy to see why this would be unacceptable.

That was a very good point: As a USER, I would be delighted if this app
was possible!

I believe the organizations behind this stuff have failed to recognize
things like user generated content, p2p and bittorrent, the new age and
Internet in general!

But that's not really the point at hand.

>> (There is way too little information about all these things on the
>> light-net (e.g. Wikipedia). Put it there. I can only imagine how much
>> innovation the end users miss out on every day these things are hidden
>> away behind legacy cabal-style organizations! .. and each of these
>> days the internet gets faster, and an actual "iMovies" gets nearer!)
>
> I'm not sure if you consider a book published by McGraw/Hill to be
> "hiding information" behind a "legacy cabal-style organization." I
> guess the art of writing on physical paper does go back a few thousand
> years, so perhaps I can't object to the word "legacy," but some
> legacies can be worth preserving. IMHO the printing press is one,
> and I guess I'd say agriculture and irrigation are also legacy technologies
> that still have some applicability, even in the Internet age.
>
> More to the point, of course there are good reasons to release more
> information. There are also a number of constraints on what can be
> done. At a certain point, if you want to author professional content,
> it is simply necessary to have a copy of the full specifications, or to
> work together with someone who does. Various folks (myself included)
> are working to make more developer information available, but there
> will always be a point where people will probably need to spend some
> money, e.g. to buy the spec.
>
> Of course, there are certain frustrations working with any big, open
> organization like the BDA, and reading and signing licenses isn't my
> personal idea of a fun day out either. That said, I think the word
> "cabal-style" is misplaced.

"big, open": I'd say the Eclipse foundation is pretty big and open. The
Java Community Process is big and open. The stuff and standards coming
out of such organizations are (have become) rather open.

I understand BDA as a "pay your way in" organization, "sell your soul to
Satan" (as in "sign a license"), even for the mere *production of
content*. This is DEFINITELY NOT a good thing for consumers. So please
enlighten me on what it is good FOR? How is this thing organized? How is
the model supposed to work? What are the "number of constraints on what
can be done"?

I fail to see *any* good points (or any points, whatsoever) in having
anything of the specs, javadocs, libraries to be stuck behind any fee -
for *producing content*. I'd however back the notion of having HW
producers bound by some agreement to make their players compatible with
the standard - again so that the actual content providers will have an
easier day.
Someone pointed towards hypothetical security holes of some company's
player as a reason to make specs payware/hidden/difficult to obtain.
Such attitudes didn't exactly hinder viruses, worms and whatnot to crack
through the proprietary, closed-source defenses of Windows?

Would it have been smart of Microsoft way back then to make it DIFFICULT
to code applications on top of MS-DOS, Windows, assuming that Microsoft
wanted their OS adopted, with lots of content available, thereby
entrenching their position?

When I want to code an application to Windows, Mac OS, Linux, Java,
PDAs, phones, whatnots, when, exactly, do I have to sign some license,
and pay for the specs to actually generate this "content"?
On which level are content production to Bluray players that different?

If BDA wants this thing to be adopted and hit off, they should make
Bluray a cool media and application platform on which "media" in the
widest sense possible can be delivered, with any barriers of exciting
content production fully removed. (The minimum CPU speed and graphics
turnover requirements should be bumped somewhat high, so that the
possibilities opens up.)

Endre

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