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New and Curious

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agrando
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Joined: 2008-01-23

Hello all,

My name is Aaron Grando, and I'm about to jump into this exciting new world of BD-J development. As far as background...I'm a fairly experienced HD-DVD author, but we all know how that's been going...learning BD-J is a way of future-proofing myself. I am a beginner to Java programming, but I do have some programming background, so *hopefully* I can pick up Java without too many bumps. :)

I've got a lot of questions, but if you'll bear with me for the most basic stuff I'd be so thankful.

- This is the only community that I could find regarding BD-J authoring of any kind. Is there a reason for this? Are there NDA's or any other (legal?) reasons why people don't discuss BD-J authoring? Are there other communities I didn't find?
- I *don't* have a copy of the spec. I don't have a copy of the HD-DVD spec, either, though, and I did just fine without it. Is it possible to work without it in BD-J's case?
- In terms of testing - what players/software can play recordable/rewritable media that also support BD-J? We currently have a BD-P1000 that can play rewritable media but it doesn't support BD-J content.
- Also, does this burned content need to be signed in some way to allow playback? Is this possible for an author like myself?
- I've got Sonic Scenarist Blu-Ray Authoring suite, including "Scenarist BD-J" which is essentially a hacked-up version of Eclipse. Is the the best development enviroment to use?

I'm looking forward to learning and seeing this community grow -- HD-DVD had a pretty solid community built by Microsoft. I hope with BD-J starting to show up in players more that authors can get a solid user-support system set up.

Thanks!
- Aaron

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aventuri
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Joined: 2007-05-16

hi will,
i'am andrea venturi, another italian guy, and i really think i can help you to jumpstart on this fantastic world of interactivity on blu ray disk.

we have been working a lot, since 2004, on interactive tv over DVB-T MHP that is still based on java and the same fancy multimedia libs.

you can see here a reference video about t-islessia, a proof that you can achieve a really dynamic performance over underpowered box like the MHP STV for sale in italy.

http://mhplab.cineca.tv/t-islessia-videodemo.mpeg

and now we have made the port of these java engines over BD-J so we can very say that you can achieve a very good user experience provided you have contents (and it seems you have it..), willlingness to learn and some spare time.. it's not easy to understand and work around the pitfalls of this environment if you can't get your hands on a pricey development lab.

BUT the important thing is that we now believe that BD-J is really capable of a lot more than simply show some fancy menu but that you can put in place real games that can really hook the casual user..

as you know the HD-DVD pro and cons, i bet you'll soon appreciate the more complex BD-J feature-set.

BTW if you want more info you can contact me at a.venturi at cineca dot it

bye

andrea

raserex
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Joined: 2007-12-04

Phil,

I am in Glendale and would love to come to your seminar. I'm starting at a company in Burbank next week and it's my first time with BD-J. When is the seminar and what must I do to attend?

Joel

chester15
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Joined: 2008-02-21

Phil, where is the pdf available? can you give a link so i can download? really interested in the class as well. when is that starting?

clinic
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Joined: 2008-02-14

Sorry for the delay of my response. It's as if suddently there is a lot more traffic on this site. Wow.

The website for the book is here: http://math.hws.edu/javanotes/. The PDF's for the book are at the bottom of the page. You can print your own, but it's a tome (700 pages). I would recomend going through Mr Eck's online printing solution. It's cheap.

The information for the Javelin BD-J course is here: http://javelindvd.com/Technology/HDTC/HDTC.aspx. The first "Java For Authors" course starts Tuesday Feb 26th... today. That website will point you toward sales@javelinDVD.com (also darren@javelindvd.com) or a phone number (leave a message with Darren Lepke) to call to register.

The course is very fast paced and packed tight. If you're a DVD author or HDi author, there is a long distance to travel to become a BD-J author. It's time to go back to school. Sure tools will be made and the future for studios will be better, but understanding Java and BD-J is clearly something every good BD-J author should attain.

-- as a side note --
I haven't done much in Java since the fall of the Dot Com, where I found my way into DVD after an idiotic idea to transplant myself to Los Angeles... Jobless. So I'm very excited to get back into development. Last year I went to JavaOne for the very first time. On the last day of the event James Gosling (The Father of Java) gave the final keynote speach. Among ground scanning helocopters, artificial intelligence, and scanners/printers that are java powered were a couple of guys showing off BD-J. Zane Vella (of RCDb), Danny Kaye of Fox Studios demonstrated a working BD-Live demo to roughly 10,000 developers on three screens each the size of a house. I felt like a kid in a candy shop, and it got me very "jazzed" for developing in Java again. If you get a chance I highly recommend going to JavaOne, and don't miss that keynote!

chihiro_saito
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Joined: 2006-11-08

Hi Clinic, and others -

Speaking of JavaOne, I'd like to point out that the abstracts for sessions for this year are already available on the web. I'm excited to hear some of these myself!

http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/index.jsp

Go to the "Sessions" entry on the left side of the site, and run a search on keywords like "blu-ray" or "TV". Items include:

TS-5449
Javaâ„¢ Technology for Blu-ray and TV: Authoring for Performance Diversity
Technical Session
Bill Foote, Sun Microsystems, Inc.

TS-5638
Writing Connected Device Configuration Applications for Resource-Constrained Devices
Technical Session
Amir Amit, Sun Microsystems

TS-5888
Driving Innovation in Packaged Media (Blu-ray) User Experience
Technical Session
Kyle Prestenback, The Walt Disney Company

TS-6369
Developing Games for Blu-ray Disc
Technical Session
Michael Zink, Technicolor

TS-6464
Blu-ray Disc Security
Technical Session
Joe Rice, MX Production Services; Nancy Zentner, Sonic Solutions

BOF-5451
Blu-ray and Javaâ„¢ Technology Roundtable
Birds-of-a-Feather Session (BOF)
Bill Foote, Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Bill Foote

> Speaking of JavaOne, I'd like to point out that the abstracts for sessions for this year are already available on the web. I'm excited to hear some of these myself!
>
> http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/index.jsp
>
> Go to the "Sessions" entry on the left side of the site, and run a search on keywords like "blu-ray" or "TV". Items include:
>
> TS-5449
> Javaâ„¢ Technology for Blu-ray and TV: Authoring for Performance Diversity
> Technical Session
> Bill Foote, Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> <...>

Hi everyone,

I should probably mention that we changed this talk's description
and title. We decided to make it less about performance diversity,
and more of an introduction to the key open-source tools in this emerging
community. The new description is up on the web site.

Cheers,

Bill

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agrando
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Joined: 2008-01-23

Thanks for the welcome, Phil.

I can't make it out to Glendale, but thanks a lot for the recommendation for Introduction to Programming Using Java. It looks like it will be helpful.

I've also picked up a book from Amazon Called "Beginning Java 2, JDK 1.3 Edition" by Ivor Horton. It's a monster of a book, but considering its age (from....2000?) it was very cheap (about $5, shipped). I've worked my way through the beginning pages and it's really helped me get a feel for the Java workflow, and to get acquainted with the jargon.

clinic
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Joined: 2008-02-14

Hello Aaron,
My name is Phil, and I too was involved with the HDCookbook. I also am now involved with BD-J coming from the HDi side like you.
I have had Java experience in the past way back in the Dot Com days, but I'm having to come back up to speed, and at a higher capacity now with BD-J. I am working at a company called Javelin Ventures in Glendale and we are now putting on a seminar called Java Programming for Authors. In this course we will be bridging many HDi and DVD type authors into Java programming focused toward BD-J. The book we will be teaching from is called "Introduction to Programming Using Java", which is VERY affordable (free online PDF). This book teaches from Java 5.0, so of course we will be catering to BD-J specific topics. (like the HAVi, or AWT of BD-J, not Swing)
Now, you may not be able to make it out here from Philly, but if you ever do, you can be read up on what we are teaching from.

thx,
Phil

bddeveloper
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Joined: 2008-01-14

Hello Phil,

What titles have the Jukebox feature on them, the DMB title maybe?

Scott

clinic
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Joined: 2008-02-14

I doubt you're talking about this: http://www.blurayjukebox.com/ and I don't really know of any functions like that on HD DVD, so I can only imagine it might be related something we might have worked on, which I'm not at liberty to say. The most up to date list of BD-J titles I know of is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J Though none of these "currently" listed titles are Music related.

Are you looking for examples of an implementation?

bddeveloper
Offline
Joined: 2008-01-14

Maybe it was Deluxe that developed a BD-J Jukebox application, maybe I am thinking of what they did with Ratatouille. I was hoping for a cool music title! Oh well.

Bill Foote

bd-j-dev@mobileandembedded.org wrote:
> Thanks for the warm welcome, Bill!
>
> I'm located in Always-Sunny Philadelphia. It's overcast and rainy today.

Maybe Danny DeVito brings his own sunshine?

> When you mention API signatures, could you explain what they are (nothing in-depth if you are unable to, just something to look for)? I have a trio of files that are included with our copy of Scenarist, "SonicBDJ.jar" (which I believe is the same as "BDJ.jar"), "basis.jar", and "btclasses.zip". If these aren't the API signatures, what are they? I've read a lot of people around the board asking where you can get these files.

It's basically the names of all of the classes and methods in the
platform. You need it in some form you can compile against.

If you look inside those .zip or .jar files, some of them will contain
files like "javax/tv/xlet/XletContext.class" or
"org/bluray/ui/SyncFrameAccurateAnimation.class". Those .zip or .jar
files contain the API signatures you can compile against.

> I've read that in order to do some fairly basic things (such as title changes), you need AACS. Does this mean that, for now, it would be impossible to make something, for instance, like a "main menu" in BD-J? This is my short-term goal.

Not true. To do those things, you do need to be signed, but you
don't need AACS. There's a different kind of signing that's applied
to Java applications (or "xlets"). This can be done with the jar signer
tool available (for free!) in https://hdcookbook.dev.java.net; with
that, you can make a BD-RE disc that will play on most players, and be
able to access the functionalities that require signing, such as title
change and network access.

> Thanks for the recommendation on the book. I understand that as one of the authors of the book that you'll push it as much as you can (I would! hah), but how much of a resource is the book in terms of BD-J? I'm already very well versed in HD-DVD development, and I have a fairly solid grasp on HDMV.

Sometimes I feel like I'm living out Glengarry Glen Ross.

Always. Be. Closing.

> And....one last thing. :)
> Do you recommend any books or websites that offer some general (or beginner) Java programming/development tips or instructions that you think would be helpful? I'm trying to get a sense of what resources would be a good buy (for my company and my other co-workers who are going to try to learn this alongside me). Thanks!

It looks like you got some good recommendations already. I fear I'm
really awful at that kind of recommendation; I'm too close to the Java
side of things to know that.

Cheers,

Bill

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maciejka79
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Joined: 2008-02-07

Hi.
Another newbie from Poland:)

maciej

willyhd
Offline
Joined: 2007-11-09

Hello Aaron, hello Bill and all others.

I'm another NEW guy interested to BD-J development. My name is William Fanelli, and I work in a Italian DVD authoring company. We have authored 6 HD-DVD with HDi menus, and 7 Blu-ray HDMV (and others 3 are in development now), all title for home video (some good movies like "Slevin", "Terabithia", Alpha Dog etc.). After the HDDVD "death" I want to learn BD-J, but like Aaron I'm a beginner to Java programming.
Anyway, we have purchased SONIC HDMV and BD-J software, but also "the HD Cookbook" (for Bill's Happyness...) and also the Mark Johnson book, "Producing fo HD DVD and blu-ray disk".
With the HD-Cookbook code I have some difficoult, because I have some experience only with Visual Studio (for C++) and also Eclipse. My question is: I'ts possible to import hdcookbook code in to Eclipse, for experimentation? Is it a difficoult operation?
Thanks to all, I hope to author my first BD-J title soon...
And sorry for my english!

dbreitenfeld
Offline
Joined: 2007-03-18

Hi William Fanelli,

We have set up an eclipse workspace for the HD Cookbook and will be releasing a wikipaper (http://dostudio.netblender.com/wikipapers/wikipapers.asp) next week on it. If you are interested in this we can send you a draft of this white paper, along with the Eclipse workspace files. You should know we've set up the workspace to be relative so all library files are within workspace and we don't use too many global variables, or any customized Eclipse variables this makes the workspace ultra portable, meaning you can instantly share it with just about everyone as long as they copy the library files to the correct folder.

This will also work with WSAD 5.x and RAD 6.x in case you are using those IDE's as well.

Please let me know if this is of interest to you.

Cheers,

Denny B.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[i]NetBlender DoStudio MX Team - NDS - http://dostudio.netblender.com [/i]

willyhd
Offline
Joined: 2007-11-09

Hi Danny,
yes, I'm very interested to the Eclipse Workspace, this can solve a lot of problem to me.
If you want to contact me direcly, you can at william dot f at impronte dot com.
Many thanks

William F

Bill Foote

bd-j-dev@mobileandembedded.org wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> My name is Aaron Grando, and I'm about to jump into this exciting new world of BD-J development. As far as background...I'm a fairly experienced HD-DVD author, but we all know how that's been going...learning BD-J is a way of future-proofing myself. I [i]am[/i] a beginner to Java programming, but I do have some programming background, so *hopefully* I can pick up Java without too many bumps. :)

Hey Aaron, pleased to meet you and welcome.

> I've got a lot of questions, but if you'll bear with me for the most basic stuff I'd be so thankful.
>
> - This is the only community that I could find regarding BD-J authoring of [i]any[/i] kind. Is there a reason for this? Are there NDA's or any other (legal?) reasons why people don't discuss BD-J authoring? Are there other communities I didn't find?

I don't know of others, but in any case, I'm sure this is far and away
the best. Disclaimer: I created this one.

But yes, there are NDAs and such that constrain what some people can
say under certain circumstances. Personally, I'm very careful to
respect confidentiality. For example, since I work at Sun, I'm in
the fortunate position of being a bit of a neutral player somewhere
between the content industry and player makers. I work very hard
to be respectful of the environment that other folks are coming from.

Also, be aware that the DVD industry was never as open as, say, the
open-source IT community, or the JCP and mobile phones. The degree
of openness in Blu-ray may shift over time.

As Sun, we're obviously trying to make it more open, but we have to
do it with a bit of humility. I'm reminded of something I heard in
volunteer training for the Obama campaign: "Nobody can do everything,
but everybody can do something." To me, this forum is one of those
"somethings."

> - I *don't* have a copy of the spec. I don't have a copy of the HD-DVD spec, either, though, and I did just fine without it. Is it possible to work without it in BD-J's case?

Yes, though you really do need at least the API signatures. I can't give
those to you, but we're working very hard to make the javadocs for the
full platform available for free, with reasonable terms. In the meantime,
ask around and you might find things you can do. I understand that some
have even developed apps by looking inside the platform JAR file of a software
player, but that's pretty extreme.

Also, the core of the BD-J platform consists of specifications that are
already freely available.

I'd suggest that you run, do not walk, to your local bookstore and buy
a copy of the HD cookbook. No, buy two, and I'm not just saying that
because I get a royalty :-) http://hdcookbook.com has details. It has
a general introduction to the platform, and pointers to the core specifications
that are available (PBP, JavaTV, and GEM).

> - In terms of testing - what players/software can play recordable/rewritable media that also support BD-J? We currently have a BD-P1000 that can play rewritable media but it doesn't support BD-J content.

About he BD-P1000, it does support BD-J content.

The answer of which players can play recordable/rewritable media is
"all, or at least most of them." There's a Wikipedia entry that might
list ones known to work.

In my position, I don't really want to get into the business of recommending
specific players, because that might offend some other people I work with!

> - Also, does this burned content need to be signed in some way to allow playback? Is this possible for an author like myself?

Yes and yes. An RE disc does *not* need to be protected with AACS, but
you will want to sign BD-J xlets. That can be done with a freely available
tool, or with a professional tool like Scenarist or Blu-print.

> - I've got Sonic Scenarist Blu-Ray Authoring suite, including "Scenarist BD-J" which is essentially a hacked-up version of Eclipse. Is the the best development enviroment to use?

For some, yes. For others, Blu-print has advantages. For still others,
the hdcookbook.dev.java.net tool suite is a good choice.

> I'm looking forward to learning and seeing this community grow -- HD-DVD had a pretty solid community built by Microsoft. I hope with BD-J starting to show up in players more that authors can get a solid user-support system set up.

I hope so too! Obviously, Sun isn't dominant in BD-J the way Microsoft
is with iHD -- we operate more as a member of a community, and in less of
a "your first sample's free, kid" mode :-) So don't expect everything
to come directly from Sun. That said, enabling this community is
important to us.

Definitely get a copy of the cookbook and go to hdcookbook.com to explore
the resources that are out there. I think that the hdcookbook.dev.java.net
open-source project is shaping up nicely as a resource, too, including for
people who want to work on spec, learn the technology, or experiment.

By the way, where are you located? I like to get a sense of the
geographical distribution of the community.

Cheers,

Bill
--
Bill Foote bill.foote @ sun.com
Blu-ray Java and Authoring Architect Sun Microsystems, L.A.

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agrando
Offline
Joined: 2008-01-23

Thanks for the warm welcome and the in-depth response, Bill!

I'm located in Always-Sunny Philadelphia. It's overcast and rainy today.

When you mention API signatures, could you explain what they are (nothing in-depth if you are unable to, just something to look for)? I have a trio of files that are included with our copy of Scenarist, "SonicBDJ.jar" (which I believe is the same as "BDJ.jar"), "basis.jar", and "btclasses.zip". If these aren't the API signatures, what are they? I've read a lot of people around the board asking where you can get these files.

I've read that in order to do some fairly basic things (such as title changes), you need AACS. Does this mean that, for now, it would be impossible to make something, for instance, like a "main menu" in BD-J? This is my short-term goal.

Thanks for the recommendation on the book. I understand that as one of the authors of the book that you'll push it as much as you can (I would! hah), but how much of a resource is the book in terms of BD-J? I'm already very well versed in HD-DVD development, and I have a fairly solid grasp on HDMV.

And....one last thing. :)
Do you recommend any books or websites that offer some general (or beginner) Java programming/development tips or instructions that you think would be helpful? I'm trying to get a sense of what resources would be a good buy (for my company and my other co-workers who are going to try to learn this alongside me). Thanks!

- Aaron

Message was edited by: agrando

bddeveloper
Offline
Joined: 2008-01-14

Hello Aaron,

From a book point of view i would learn basic java syntax and that is about it from any modern book. But even then I am skeptical because of asserts and other new features in version 1.6 that are not support in 1.3 which is what BD-J uses. So I would try and find a 1.3 Syntax book because, not only is the API not back wards compatible but neither is the syntax.

Then pick up a good book on AWT, NOT SWING.. I would actually recommend Amazon for this because you'll find a huge selection of old books (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_/102-8892233-5757764?url=search-alias...)

Aside from playing video and having full DVD control you can write a quick AWT application that uses your code for a menu without needed an Xlet viewer and you can debug this a lot easier and faster. So in your book you get on AWT see if they have sample code that will give you an application you can always use a JFRAME and use swing as the "shell" of your application. This allows you to build an animation engine for doing things like fades and scrolling and other things that you did with HD-DVD. Also if you are used to use the MS Simulator instead of the Sonic Emulator (which if you've been doing HD-DVD for a year you would definitely avoid the emulator when it first came out) you'll be used to building menus with no video and testing them.

Oh then I recommend a good quick book on Ant. AT least from the point of view of understanding what an Ant Task is and how to write you own. It is really easy use and can really help build your jar files correctly every time.