Skip to main content

[JAVA2D] Direct3D is disabled in win2003 in 6uN EA?

13 replies [Last post]
Anonymous

Reply viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Dmitri Trembovetski

Ken Warner wrote:
> The assumption that,
>> "...typically people don't care about
>> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
>> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
>> updated as often.
>
> Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.

You may want to tell that to Microsoft then, because in their
next server os (Windows 2008) not only Aero is disabled
by default, it is not even present in the installation,
and the default (and only) theme is Win2k. I guess they have
found that administrators don't care much about fancy
graphics on servers.

Moreover, the vast majority of servers are
administered remotely anyway.

Thanks,
Dmitri

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

Ken Warner

The funny thing is that Windows 2000 wasn't a server class OS
when I bought it. It was just the latest Windows. Somewhere
along the line it became a server OS. And I didn't know
I became an Administrator. I guess I didn't get the memo.

And the reason I don't upgrade to XP or (yuk) Vista is that I'd rather
spend my cycles on work rather than fancy icons and animation
to give me a "...richer user interface experience..." Windows 2000
is almost as fast as Windows NT....

I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

And there's no point in telling Microsoft anything -- they
know *ALL* the answers. It's not my fault!

Dmitri Trembovetski wrote:
>
> Ken Warner wrote:
>
>> The assumption that,
>>
>>> "...typically people don't care about
>>> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
>>> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
>>> updated as often.
>>
>>
>> Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.
>
>
> You may want to tell that to Microsoft then, because in their
> next server os (Windows 2008) not only Aero is disabled
> by default, it is not even present in the installation,
> and the default (and only) theme is Win2k. I guess they have
> found that administrators don't care much about fancy
> graphics on servers.
>
> Moreover, the vast majority of servers are
> administered remotely anyway.
>
> Thanks,
> Dmitri
>
>

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

Phil Race

Ken,

Please read the subject line.
Windows 2003 and 2008 are server OSes and are quite different
than windows 2000.

-phil.

Ken Warner wrote:
> The funny thing is that Windows 2000 wasn't a server class OS
> when I bought it. It was just the latest Windows. Somewhere
> along the line it became a server OS. And I didn't know
> I became an Administrator. I guess I didn't get the memo.
>
> And the reason I don't upgrade to XP or (yuk) Vista is that I'd rather
> spend my cycles on work rather than fancy icons and animation
> to give me a "...richer user interface experience..." Windows 2000
> is almost as fast as Windows NT....
>
> I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
>
> And there's no point in telling Microsoft anything -- they
> know *ALL* the answers. It's not my fault!
>
> Dmitri Trembovetski wrote:
>>
>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>
>>> The assumption that,
>>>
>>>> "...typically people don't care about
>>>> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
>>>> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
>>>> updated as often.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.
>>
>>
>> You may want to tell that to Microsoft then, because in their
>> next server os (Windows 2008) not only Aero is disabled
>> by default, it is not even present in the installation,
>> and the default (and only) theme is Win2k. I guess they have
>> found that administrators don't care much about fancy
>> graphics on servers.
>>
>> Moreover, the vast majority of servers are
>> administered remotely anyway.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dmitri
>>
>>
>
> ===========================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

Ken Warner

I'm just going by what Dmitri told me...

Secondly, starting with b08 the pipeline will only be enabled
on client-class OS (WinXP and newer). Win2K* are classified as
a server-class OS flavor.

The reason for this policy is that typically on servers people
care more about stability than performance, and the drivers
for these systems are lagging behind client OS-es.

Thanks,
Dmitri

Phil Race wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Please read the subject line.
> Windows 2003 and 2008 are server OSes and are quite different
> than windows 2000.
>
> -phil.
>
> Ken Warner wrote:
>
>> The funny thing is that Windows 2000 wasn't a server class OS
>> when I bought it. It was just the latest Windows. Somewhere
>> along the line it became a server OS. And I didn't know
>> I became an Administrator. I guess I didn't get the memo.
>>
>> And the reason I don't upgrade to XP or (yuk) Vista is that I'd rather
>> spend my cycles on work rather than fancy icons and animation
>> to give me a "...richer user interface experience..." Windows 2000
>> is almost as fast as Windows NT....
>>
>> I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
>>
>> And there's no point in telling Microsoft anything -- they
>> know *ALL* the answers. It's not my fault!
>>
>> Dmitri Trembovetski wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>>
>>>> The assumption that,
>>>>
>>>>> "...typically people don't care about
>>>>> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
>>>>> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
>>>>> updated as often.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You may want to tell that to Microsoft then, because in their
>>> next server os (Windows 2008) not only Aero is disabled
>>> by default, it is not even present in the installation,
>>> and the default (and only) theme is Win2k. I guess they have
>>> found that administrators don't care much about fancy
>>> graphics on servers.
>>>
>>> Moreover, the vast majority of servers are
>>> administered remotely anyway.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dmitri
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ===========================================================================
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the
>> body
>> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send
>> email to
>> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".
>
>
> ===========================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".
>
>

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

Dmitri Trembovetski

That's correct, Windows 2000 will also be excluded.

Thanks,
Dmitri

Ken Warner wrote:
> I'm just going by what Dmitri told me...
>
>
> Secondly, starting with b08 the pipeline will only be enabled
> on client-class OS (WinXP and newer). Win2K* are classified as
> a server-class OS flavor.
>
> The reason for this policy is that typically on servers people
> care more about stability than performance, and the drivers
> for these systems are lagging behind client OS-es.
>
> Thanks,
> Dmitri
> Phil Race wrote:
>> Ken,
>>
>> Please read the subject line.
>> Windows 2003 and 2008 are server OSes and are quite different
>> than windows 2000.
>>
>> -phil.
>>
>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>
>>> The funny thing is that Windows 2000 wasn't a server class OS
>>> when I bought it. It was just the latest Windows. Somewhere
>>> along the line it became a server OS. And I didn't know
>>> I became an Administrator. I guess I didn't get the memo.
>>>
>>> And the reason I don't upgrade to XP or (yuk) Vista is that I'd rather
>>> spend my cycles on work rather than fancy icons and animation
>>> to give me a "...richer user interface experience..." Windows 2000
>>> is almost as fast as Windows NT....
>>>
>>> I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
>>>
>>> And there's no point in telling Microsoft anything -- they
>>> know *ALL* the answers. It's not my fault!
>>>
>>> Dmitri Trembovetski wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The assumption that,
>>>>>
>>>>>> "...typically people don't care about
>>>>>> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
>>>>>> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
>>>>>> updated as often.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You may want to tell that to Microsoft then, because in their
>>>> next server os (Windows 2008) not only Aero is disabled
>>>> by default, it is not even present in the installation,
>>>> and the default (and only) theme is Win2k. I guess they have
>>>> found that administrators don't care much about fancy
>>>> graphics on servers.
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, the vast majority of servers are
>>>> administered remotely anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dmitri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ===========================================================================
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in
>>> the body
>>> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send
>>> email to
>>> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".
>>
>>
>> ===========================================================================
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the
>> body
>> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send
>> email to
>> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".
>>
>>
>
> ===========================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

Ken Warner

One last thing then I'll say no more.

Seems to me that the way to include / exclude systems is
by the capabilities of the graphics card that Java is running
on. I can think of server side apps that could use a fast
graphics pipeline to ship chunks of graphical information
to a client using a high speed network. You have the big
iron running the graphics and the client displaying the
computed image. Things like molecular physics; GIS systems;
animations; VR -- stuff like that where the heavy lifting
was done server side and the client was just watching.

Also if someone didn't fit the profile you've described
and put a really good graphics card in a server and then
found out that the graphics card was not used by Java because
of the OS -- that person might get a little upset.

But I think I will say no more....

Dmitri Trembovetski wrote:
>
> That's correct, Windows 2000 will also be excluded.
>
> Thanks,
> Dmitri
>
>
> Ken Warner wrote:
>
>> I'm just going by what Dmitri told me...
>>
>>
>> Secondly, starting with b08 the pipeline will only be enabled
>> on client-class OS (WinXP and newer). Win2K* are classified as
>> a server-class OS flavor.
>>
>> The reason for this policy is that typically on servers people
>> care more about stability than performance, and the drivers
>> for these systems are lagging behind client OS-es.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dmitri
>> Phil Race wrote:
>>
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> Please read the subject line.
>>> Windows 2003 and 2008 are server OSes and are quite different
>>> than windows 2000.
>>>
>>> -phil.
>>>
>>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>>
>>>> The funny thing is that Windows 2000 wasn't a server class OS
>>>> when I bought it. It was just the latest Windows. Somewhere
>>>> along the line it became a server OS. And I didn't know
>>>> I became an Administrator. I guess I didn't get the memo.
>>>>
>>>> And the reason I don't upgrade to XP or (yuk) Vista is that I'd rather
>>>> spend my cycles on work rather than fancy icons and animation
>>>> to give me a "...richer user interface experience..." Windows 2000
>>>> is almost as fast as Windows NT....
>>>>
>>>> I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
>>>>
>>>> And there's no point in telling Microsoft anything -- they
>>>> know *ALL* the answers. It's not my fault!
>>>>
>>>> Dmitri Trembovetski wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken Warner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The assumption that,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "...typically people don't care about
>>>>>>> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
>>>>>>> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
>>>>>>> updated as often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You may want to tell that to Microsoft then, because in their
>>>>> next server os (Windows 2008) not only Aero is disabled
>>>>> by default, it is not even present in the installation,
>>>>> and the default (and only) theme is Win2k. I guess they have
>>>>> found that administrators don't care much about fancy
>>>>> graphics on servers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moreover, the vast majority of servers are
>>>>> administered remotely anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Dmitri
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ===========================================================================
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in
>>>> the body
>>>> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send
>>>> email to
>>>> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ===========================================================================
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in
>>> the body
>>> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send
>>> email to
>>> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ===========================================================================
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the
>> body
>> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send
>> email to
>> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".
>
>
>

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

linuxhippy
Offline
Joined: 2004-01-07
Points: 0

> on. I can think of server side apps that could use a
> fast
> graphics pipeline to ship chunks of graphical
> information
> to a client using a high speed network. You have the
> big
> iron running the graphics and the client displaying
> the
> computed image. Things like molecular physics; GIS
> systems;
> animations; VR -- stuff like that where the heavy
> lifting
> was done server side and the client was just
> watching.

Well I guess VR has a hard time on top of Java2D and overall I don't think this arguments count that much.
Keep in mind that graphic hardware does scale pretty bad, and now imagine a server using D3D for rendering images - most likely read-back from vram will be slower than rendering in software anyhow. Combined with the stability of current drivers you'll have a one-day reboot server ^^

lg Clemens

Nidel, Mike

If you're talking about a full immersive virtual reality environment,
then yes maybe VR isn't a consideration for Java2d. But for some limited
uses similar to Quicktime VR it is definitely applicable. I believe Ken
has an applet on the web that does exactly that in java.

As far as server-side graphics, the latest reasonable graphics hardware
has a much more rapid read-back from VRAM. In fact, there is a growing
community of developers using the GPU as a computing device, like a math
coprocessor. See www.gpgpu.org for more info. Almost anyone who does
image
processing in software could benefit from porting their operations to
the GPU -- regardless of whether those pixels are going straight to the
display or coming back out of VRAM to be written to a file.

As far as the Direct3D/Windows part of this thread, I have no additional
insight.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion list for Java 2D API
> [mailto:JAVA2D-INTEREST@JAVA.SUN.COM] On Behalf Of
> java2d@JAVADESKTOP.ORG
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:34 AM
> To: JAVA2D-INTEREST@JAVA.SUN.COM
> Subject: Re: [JAVA2D] Direct3D is disabled in win2003 in 6uN EA?
>
> > on. I can think of server side apps that could use a fast graphics
> > pipeline to ship chunks of graphical information to a
> client using a
> > high speed network. You have the big iron running the graphics and
> > the client displaying the computed image. Things like molecular
> > physics; GIS systems; animations; VR -- stuff like that where the
> > heavy lifting was done server side and the client was just watching.
>
> Well I guess VR has a hard time on top of Java2D and overall
> I don't think this arguments count that much.
> Keep in mind that graphic hardware does scale pretty bad, and
> now imagine a server using D3D for rendering images - most
> likely read-back from vram will be slower than rendering in
> software anyhow. Combined with the stability of current
> drivers you'll have a one-day reboot server ^^
>
> lg Clemens
> [Message sent by forum member 'linuxhippy' (linuxhippy)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=246278
>
> ==============================================================
> =============
> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and
> include in the body of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST".
> For general help, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and
> include in the body of the message "help".
>

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

linuxhippy
Offline
Joined: 2004-01-07
Points: 0

> processing in software could benefit from porting
> their operations to
> the GPU -- regardless of whether those pixels are
> going straight to the
> display or coming back out of VRAM to be written to a
> file.

Yes I know gpgpu and yes I've already on such a project, I also have some posts in their forums.
Now write some software which does what you describe here, implement it using the D3D pipeline including readbacks to VRam and once with the headless software-only Toolkit - now load your service with 20-50 concurrent users (otherwise the faster pipeline would not make any sence) - and compare your results.
No matter wether you use a 8800GTX or a Readeon-3870 with the latest drivers, the results will be disappointing compared with the software-only pipeline - if you don't believe me simply try it out.

If your results are good, which I would find very strange, then this is a strong argument (for the 0.5% of use cases where it matters ^^).

lg Clemens

Dmitri Trembovetski

java2d@JAVADESKTOP.ORG wrote:
>> processing in software could benefit from porting
>> their operations to
>> the GPU -- regardless of whether those pixels are
>> going straight to the
>> display or coming back out of VRAM to be written to a
>> file.
>
> Yes I know gpgpu and yes I've already on such a project, I also have some posts in their forums.
> Now write some software which does what you describe here, implement it using the D3D pipeline including readbacks to VRam and once with the headless software-only Toolkit - now load your service with 20-50 concurrent users (otherwise the faster pipeline would not make any sence) - and compare your results.
> No matter wether you use a 8800GTX or a Readeon-3870, the results will be disappointing compared with the software-only pipeline - if you don't believe me simply try it out.
>

I agree - for servers it's much easier to scale using CPUs
than GPUs - at least, for now.

Thanks,
Dmitri

> lg Clemens
> [Message sent by forum member 'linuxhippy' (linuxhippy)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=246354
>
> ===========================================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
> of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
> listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

Ken Warner

The assumption that,

>"...typically people don't care about
> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
> updated as often.

Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.

I keep my machine as up to date
as possible. I installed the most recent driver for my
old video card -- before NVidia stopped supporting it.

And I have the latest DirectDraw that Microsoft has
released for Windows 2000.

I understand that some time in the future, my machine
will simply be an old useless hulk but it's still got
a lot of useful life left in it.

My suggestion would be to support hardware acceleration in
layers. The lowest level layer would be the basic hardware
acceleration for VolitileImage so that basic use of BufferStrategy
would give hardware acceleration for simple drawing -- if the
card supported that. BufferStrategy already does a check to
see basic capabilities of the card.

Then have higher level layers of graphic acceleration
for the more advanced video cards. Shading etc.

I don't even know what the most advanced cards have
these days.

The idea being to do the best you can with the capabilities of
the card Java is running on.

As the old saying goes: "Don't let perfect stand in the way of good."

Ken

Dmitri Trembovetski wrote:
>
> The reason is that typically people don't care about
> graphics performance on a server, and also drivers
> tend to be old/buggy on servers as they are not
> updated as often.
>
> If you have an opinion or use case on why this
> should not be the case please let us know.
>

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".

linuxhippy
Offline
Joined: 2004-01-07
Points: 0

> Is fundamentally wrong -- at least in my case.
I tend to hate such heuristic desicisions - I was hit by them in the oppsite way:
I have a Core2Duo Laptop with 2GB Ram running Linux - so by default the server-jvm is used for my desktop applications and even for Applets and small Webstart applications!

Since the upgrade from 1gb->2gb ram (which makes java recognoize my machine as server-class computer) eclipse was terrible unresponsive - and java does nit even provide a non-hackish way of disabling server-class-machine-detection. I had to copy arround the libjvm.so files so that java starts the server-compiler but instead launches the client compiler.

A bug-report filed by me was closed :-/

> Then have higher level layers of graphic acceleration
> for the more advanced video cards. Shading etc.
Well I think some kind of black-listing would probably the best thing - black-list which driver/os/directx-versions are known to be broken and emit a small warning on the command line about that (this way many more people will complain at gpu manufacturers to provide better drivers).

What you mean would be really hard to implement - in fact this would lead to many different implementations for each GPU generation. Who should pay all the programmers and bug-fixers ;)

lg Clemens

Message was edited by: linuxhippy

Ken Warner

> [quote]
> Then have higher level layers of graphic acceleration
> for the more advanced video cards. Shading etc.
> [/quote]
> Well I think some kind of black-listing would probably the best thing -
>black-list which driver/os/directx-versions are known to be broken and emit a small
>warning on the command line about that (this way many more people will complain at gpu
>manufacturers to provide better drivers).
>

If that leads to more people getting some kind of hardware acceleration -- I support that idea.

> What you mean would be really hard to implement - in fact this would lead to
>many different implementations for each GPU generation. Who should pay all the
>programmers and bug-fixers ;)
>

Not if it is done right. Really hard is what those 6 figure salaries are for.

===========================================================================
To unsubscribe, send email to listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body
of the message "signoff JAVA2D-INTEREST". For general help, send email to
listserv@java.sun.com and include in the body of the message "help".