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Why is the quickstarter not available on non-windows platform

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chandru_in
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It is stated that the quickstarter is available only for windows. When I tried the Linux version, there was no jqs. Why has the quickstarter not been made available on Linux? Is there any plan for implementing it in near future? If so how near is it?

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jwenting
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ah, the conspiracy theorists are loose in the forums.

So now Sun is a Microsoft drone because they release Windows software?
Get a grip, kid.

Sun releases JREs for Windows, Solaris, and Linux (would they really do that if they were slaves of Microsoft?).
They release a beta version of a new end user product for Windows first, which happens to be the platform with by far the highest userbase of end users (probably close to 90% if not more) and you complain?

Go play with your toys.

chandru_in
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@jwenting:
You are grossly mistaken in calling me a conspiracy theorist. I love the Java platform any day over that crappy .NET stuff. What I'm trying to put forward is MS is never going to promote Java on Windows. It has already started encouraging .NET for developing Vista applications. On the other hand look at open-source world. Java is the leading language in Sourceforge. I understand Windows has largest market share but non-windows platforms are the best place where Java can get easy acceptance, especially after opening it up.

@jmelvin:
Now coming to the real point, providing "jqs" executable without providing a control for it from Java control panel should not be a problem on Linux for two reasons.

1. Even today the control panel shows up in the windows control panel but not on Gnome or KDE control centres (at least when JRE is downloaded directly from Sun's site).
2. If there is no JQS, even then control panel is not going to have the control option.
3. Today if a person is capable of installing JRE from java.com and follow the instructions there to install the plugin, he can definitely be instructed about starting the "jqs" executable. If they are getting it from distributions repos, again the distribution packagers can ensure that "jqs" is started during startup as per the policies of the distribution.

Now all that is needed is a "jqs" executable from Sun in its Java installer/self-extracting archive.

linuxhippy
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> 1. Even today the control panel shows up in the
> windows control panel but not on Gnome or KDE control
> centres (at least when JRE is downloaded directly
> from Sun's site).
First of all on Windows the situation is quite different - The Windows Control Panel is _the_ place for putting configuration-icons.
On Linux there are KDE, Gnome and many other DEs - some are more extensible, some are less.
Some users don't use DEs at all, and to be honest, its quite simply to just kall the executable "ControlPanel".
Furthermore if I go into the KDE menu "Preferences" I have a link there to the ControlPanel - yes - with the version downloaded from java.sun.com.

> 2. If there is no JQS, even then control panel is not
> going to have the control option.
What do you mean here?

> 3. Today if a person is capable of installing JRE
> from java.com and follow the instructions there to
> install the plugin, he can definitely be instructed
> about starting the "jqs" executable. If they are
> getting it from distributions repos, again the
> distribution packagers can ensure that "jqs" is
> started during startup as per the policies of the
> distribution.
>
> Now all that is needed is a "jqs" executable from Sun
> in its Java installer/self-extracting archive.
I would wait till the source of all this will be released - I guess the source should not be extremly complex. A port would take maybe a few days for an average developer.

lg Clemens

chandru_in
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I fully understand the difficulties involved in displaying Java Control Panel in the right control centre. I never meant that it must be made visible in all control centers.

I posted the whole thing as a response to the post by jmelvin, who said about how java control will not be able to have an option on Linux to start and stop JQS as there are different ways in which each distro handles daemons.

>> It's actually a little more complicated. JQS is exposed in the Java Control Panel, where
>> superusers (admins) can start/stop the service. So, the Java Control Panel code needs to
>> discover the running JQS process and start/stop it dynamically. There are other similar
>> challenges. Impossible? No. Challenging? Yes.

I just meant that it will be fine even if the Java control panel doesn't have option to start and stop JQS service. Either the user can be instructed on how to do it or the Linux distributors would handle it, if the "jqs" executable alone was provided.

The difficulty applies to installation of Java plugin too. But just because sun provides the plugin .so binary fie and necessary instructions we are able to set up the plugin on various distros after getting JRE from Sun. In other cases the distributors package the java plugin so that it gets installed to right location. Can't the same logic be applied to JQS too?

trembovetski
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> I also feel (may not be true), this has got much less to do with limited resources, but a lot more to do with a the fact that Sun is a full-fledged MS Windwos OEM.

And Sun is not a Linux OEM?

Go ahead and check the penetration of Linux on the *desktop* market today. Then
please explain how to justify spending lots of money and time on
< 2% of the market. (Yeah, I know some predict 20% by 2008 but
we've heard this before, "the next year will be the year of Linux on desktop"..)

It's just a simple question of allocating available resources where it makes sense.

Dmitri
Java2D Team

chandru_in
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I'm not interested in fighting anymore. It seems like Sun is turning a deaf ear.

trembovetski: Regarding your comment on market share, I'm surprised how your can say this. Do you know the market share of Java Applets and JNLPs compared to Flash? Then why is Sun pumping in so much of resource into JavaFX.

I'm not saying Flash is a technically better runtime than JRE. I'm just trying to say market share is not everything. Especially at an age when Sun claims to be a open-source friendly company (I respect its contributions to FOSS. I know of no other corporate being so open).

mthornton
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> There are some additional challenges with a Linux
> port. It may not be easy to develop and
> deploy a single generic JQS "service" for all
> distros. The challenge is similar to developing a
> single installer for all distros. There are subtle
> differences in the way daemons are setup and
> managed, etc. Although the core prefetching feature
> is somewhat portable, the deployment
> is more challenging.

It is a shame that no one as attempted to revisit JSR-96. The need is clearly still present.

pdoubleya
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@jmelvin: thanks for the information you've posted in this thread. It's helpful (for me) to understand where we're at and what might come (or not) in the future.

pssvasan
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Chandru_in: I Agree with u

When an enhancement can be made available on other platforms without much difficulty (all modern OS do support disk caching, which is the basis of JQS), Sun must definitely make it available. After all, Java is all about cross-platform execution

jmelvin
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>> Sun must definitely make it availble.

Now that Java is open source, I fully expect that Sun will NOT be implementing all features
for all platforms, etc. Once this code becomes available, I actually think this is a great
opportunity for an OpenJDK developer. JQS is not part of the Java API and is not therefore
required for all platforms. It is simply a startup performance enhancement, currently
implemented for 1 platform.

Notes to interested developers...

There are some additional challenges with a Linux port. It may not be easy to develop and
deploy a single generic JQS "service" for all distros. The challenge is similar to developing a
single installer for all distros. There are subtle differences in the way daemons are setup and
managed, etc. Although the core prefetching feature is somewhat portable, the deployment
is more challenging.

chandru_in
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If Java being open source is the reason for Sun not providing the improvement why does it do it on Windows alone? Is Windows version of Java source closed by any chance (I'm not really meaning it)?

I understand the challenge in service configuration for Linux. But all I want from Sun is to release a jqs excutable as it does for Windows. Linux distributions have been giving java in their own package format in their repositories. With an executable, distributions can make it start at boot. This is not that big a challenge as creating the jqs executable itself.

If Sun provides jqs executable in Linux version power users know how to make it start at boot time.

jmelvin
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>> Is Windows version of Java source closed by any chance (I'm not really meaning it)?

The JDK source for all supported platforms is available through the OpenJDK project.
However, the Sun deployment code (installers, plugins, and java web start) are not.
We plan to make these components available as resources become free. JQS is part
of the deployment component.

>> With an executable, distributions can make it start at boot.

It's actually a little more complicated. JQS is exposed in the Java Control Panel, where
superusers (admins) can start/stop the service. So, the Java Control Panel code needs to
discover the running JQS process and start/stop it dynamically. There are other similar
challenges. Impossible? No. Challenging? Yes.

chandru_in
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When deployment code is closed, why had you given open sourcing of Java as a reason for Java not implementing JQS on other platforms?

Anyway coming to handling JQS from jcontrol, I have an idea. May not be efficient, but Sun may consider it.

Starting jqs from control panel shouldn't be a problem. But for stopping it, jqs can be made to log its PID in a specific file (say /tmp/jqs.pid). This can be used by control panel to kill it. jqs can catch the KILL signal and shutdown appropriately.

jmelvin
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>> why had you given open sourcing of Java as a reason for Java not implementing JQS on
>> other platforms?

JQS was developed for the Windows platform as the best bang for the buck. Open source
had nothing to do with that decision. Sun does not have unlimited resources to implement
and test every non-JSR feature on every supported platform, etc. I think this presents a great
opportunity for open source developers, when the deployment code becomes available.

chandru_in
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Hmmm... I understand the financial problems Sun is facing.

I also feel (may not be true), this has got much less to do with limited resources, but a lot more to do with a the fact that Sun is a full-fledged MS Windwos OEM.

So if a RIA has to start equally fast (at least as far as the user can perceive) on all platforms and use a easily installable runtime (the new deployment toolkit tries to install Sun's version of JRE and not the openJDK's), Adobe Flex remains that best choice for developing it.

pdoubleya
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chandru_in : I think you're being unfair here. Technically, Sun's team has tried to address the startup problem by addressing one of the root causes of slow startup, namely that if the (large) files required by the JRE are not in disk cache, the OS will have to pull them in. That's something you or I could write for Linux or any other system, but doing it in such a way that it doesn't affect other running processes or slow down the machine in other ways is tricky. Sun decided to focus this first release on one segment of their market--the desktop/consumer segment, a segment which I believe statistics still show Windows having the commanding lead over. What doesn't make sense? I don't think this has to do with financial problems, but with Sun having to focus resources on many different problems and goals re:Java, at once. If you want JQS on Linux, you can either a) wait patiently, b) write something yourself or find some FOSS group who will help you, or c) wait impatiently and complain.

Personally, I haven't seen any magical startup time solutions coming from any other JVM providers, for example IBM. Thus I don't expect magic from Sun, either.

Myself, I find the startup time and applet performance in this release is great. I don't really care if Java programs don't start quite as fast on Linux; on my (Linux) machine, *everything* starts slowly :).

Best regards
Patrick

chandru_in
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Hmmm... I can understand these statements. I will not be surprised if this was given by any other runtime vendor (Adobe/Microsoft/XYZ). But when it comes from Sun I'm shocked. The primary advantage which Java has is its cross-platform nature. I just don't understand why this sudden focus on a specific platform. I would not be happy if some improvement was provided for Linux alone.

BTW regarding writing my own, yes I have written a hack long back but it is not worth for general use. It is a stupid HACK, which fortunately works well for me.

pdoubleya
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> It is stated that the quickstarter is available only
> for windows. When I tried the Linux version, there
> was no jqs. Why has the quickstarter not been made
> available on Linux? Is there any plan for
> implementing it in near future? If so how near is it?

This is incorrect, I've been using it on Ubuntu with Firefox since yesterday. You need to configure the browser to find the new plugin, see
http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=31412&tstart=0

It works great and performance is pretty impressive. I think some people were tripped up by the lack of an installer on Linux.

If you aren't able to get it working on your Linux distro, post to one of these forums to get some help.

Regards
Patrick

chandru_in
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linuxhippy, I too hope and pretty sure openJDK guys would do it even if Sun doesn't care.

pdoubleya, I never said that version of JRE doesn't work on Linux, I just said the startup enhancement is not available on Linux.

pdoubleya
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chandru_in: I stand corrected. You're right, Quickstarter is Windows-only, for some reason. Will be interesting to hear why.

Patrick

chandru_in
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http://weblogs.java.net/blog/editors/archives/2007/10/its_a_hit.html

ha ha pdoubleya, some editor named "invalidname" is quoting your talks in IRC. And yes you have corrected him in the comment. But there is no reply from "invalidname" regarding this.

Dunno how he is gonna hide the fact now. Yes, as he says the 3-D enhancement is Windows only. It uses Direct3D so it has to be so. Also, AFAIK Java already uses OpenGL which is there on Linux (I'm not very sure about this). But JQS is different. It uses disk cache which is available on any modern OS.

linuxhippy
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I guess because Sun thinks Windows is the platform which most desktop-users use.

I guess the quickstart-code should not be that hard to port/implement - so I am sure a Linux-Version will follow - if not by Sun, then by OpenJDK or so...

lg Clemens