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Project Looking Glass, whats next....

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paulby
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Joined: 2003-06-13

Over the last couple of years, as we have been building Project Looking Glass, we have had a number of discussions about adding collaboration services to the framework. More recently we have been in intense discussion with some other groups within Sun that have some key technologies (more of that later) and we think it's time to start exploring this space. What we propose is the development of a new SceneManager for Project Looking Glass which is completely focused around collaboration with others. We have created a new subproject of lg3d called Project Wonderland to host this work.

The overarching goal of Project Wonderland is to provide a broad suite of collaboration utilities embedded in the heart of lg3d which users can use to get real work done and which the enable rich communication dynamics which are so often lost with remote/distributed teams. We are still in the early planning stages of the project and would like to invite anyone who is interested to join the project (http://lg3d-wonderland.dev.java.net) and help enhance lg3d to support remote collaboration.

Here are some of the ideas we've thought of so far....

1) Shared 3D Workspace - Expand the 3d environment in lg3d so your desktop exists within a broader 3D environment. The idea is that you have your desktop, but if you step back and look around you can see other users desktops/applications (obviously with security options so you can keep some apps private). There needs to be a careful balance here. We don't envisage users wandering around a world looking for their files etc. Instead, we anticipate using the 3D space to interact with friends/colleagues. We can also use the space to provide some context on subject etc. For example it would be great to have an lg3d room, with our documentation (in web browsers) on the wall and persistent white boards where we can gather to discuss and design/debug lg3d.

2) Shared Applications (X11 and Java to start with) - Extend the lg3d work that allows X11 and Java apps to be displayed in the 3D world. We plan to enhance this service so that an application can be viewed and controlled by a group of users.

3) Spacialized audio & audio input - Expose a
spacialized audio framework that can be used for things like voice chat.

We have joined forces with two other teams at Sun, which is how we can tackle a project of this scope, and hope to achieve results in a reasonable time. Firstly there is Project Darkstar (http://projectdarkstar.com ) which provides a scalable persistent backend and network layer. Project Darkstar is targeted at virtual world type applications and massively multiplayer online (MMO) games, and is particularly appropriate for the kinds of multi-user collaborative applications envisaged for Project Wonderland. Secondly we are working closely with the Collaborative Environments team from Sun Labs (http://research.sun.com/projects/dashboard.php?id=85 ) who have years of experience in collaboration technologies and will be contributing both that expertise as well as certain software components to the project. Further details regarding the specific contributions from these projects will be forthcoming.

If you would like to help enhance Project Looking Glass to provide a rich, distributed, immersive and collaborative environment, please join the lg3d-wonderland project (http://lg3d-wonderland.dev.java.net ) and share your ideas and comments on this forum/email alias.

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deronj
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Joined: 2003-09-02

> looking glass may look nice but it is licenced under
> gpl. As long as that not change I am totaly not
> interested in looking glass.

Actually, LG is dual licensed. If you want to modify the LG core but don't want to contribute your proprietary changes to the community you can arrange a custom commercial license with Sun. Other companies have done that.

paulby
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Joined: 2003-06-13

We also ship the releases under a Binary Code License (BCL) which you can use if you want to create plugings or apps that are not under GPL. The only challenge with this is that you can only use the release builds, not the trunk which is where all the new features and bug fixes go.

hepler
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Joined: 2007-02-19

> As long as I (and millions with me) can't run native
> Windows applications inside Looking Glass (starting
> with simple things like MS Office and for developers
> a commandprompt and Eclipse) the entire thing is
> completely useless to me.
>
> So I'd start there if I were you, and expand into
> fancy things later once you have something that the
> majority of computer users can actually be productive
> with.
>
> It looks good so far, but is little more than a toy
> for all but a small minority of users (though
> possibly not for the majority of people working on
> the product).

Just wondering if the Sun Secure Global Desktop might provide a solution to this request to run Windows based programs in Looking Glass. It should be able to display any application in an X based environement. Maybe the people working on the Secure Global Desktop would be willing to do the interface to Looking Glass? Maybe the server and client would run on the same system. Maybe you guys could get together with them but not take on more than a few days of work in order to orient them to the project. This could result in the ability to display any program in Looking Glass that the Secure Global Desktop can handle (IBM Mainframe, HPUX, ...). I know you have more than enough on your plate as it is.

Lee

Amir Bukhari

> > As long as I (and millions with me) can't run native
> > Windows applications inside Looking Glass (starting
> > with simple things like MS Office and for developers
> > a commandprompt and Eclipse) the entire thing is
> > completely useless to me.
> >
> > So I'd start there if I were you, and expand into
> > fancy things later once you have something that the
> > majority of computer users can actually be productive
> > with.
> >
> > It looks good so far, but is little more than a toy
> > for all but a small minority of users (though
> > possibly not for the majority of people working on
> > the product).

did someone know how windows 32/64 API works? did someone know how to hook
the rendering procedure of windows system?
we need to write (I think) fast a complate GDI subsystem for windows to get
something works!!!
I don't think we will find someone who has so much time to do this.
but add this feature is also on our plan, but not high priority! because of
difficulty.
[att1.html]

dwarfy
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Joined: 2004-12-16

Hey everybody in here :)

I'm really really happy to see looking glass follow the path of a distributed collaborative environnement
!!!

Looking Glass is for me a research platform, in which we are experiencing new ideas for the human-computer interactions.
As it we must follow the trend in computer-sciences : networks !!!

I would even say that, we MUST work on this, I mean otherwise we're allready 'out of the (innovation) race' !

Personnaly I'd like to have time to work on this right now But I don't ! University didn't allowed me to do my master thesis on this :( But we'll see soon ... )

Good luck and good work lg3d team on this!

Yiiiihhaaa !

Mathieu

paulby
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Joined: 2003-06-13

Integration with native windows apps is tricky, but we hope possible. The API's in lg3d that interact with the native window system were designed with that in mind.

There are two major components to native window integration

1) Get the image of the application and track changes.

2) Intercept mouse events, before the applications see them, process them in the 3D environment, change the coordinates if necessary and then deliver them to the native apps.

Getting the application image seems doable, but we are not sure how to do 2 in Windows. We have extended the Xserver to achieve 2 on unix, but don't have that opportunity on windows. If someone has the time to research this that would be really cool.

Anyway we plan to continue with our research of exposing (hopefully) practical uses of the GPU to make users more productive.

carmello
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Joined: 2003-09-10

looking glass may look nice but it is licenced under gpl. As long as that not change I am totaly not interested in looking glass.

jwenting
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Joined: 2003-12-02

> looking glass may look nice but it is licenced under
> gpl. As long as that not change I am totaly not
> interested in looking glass.

That for me is an excellent reason to certainly NEVER look at the source and not create anything that uses its APIs.
But it would not necessarilly mean I won't take a look at it if it were useful for me as an end user.

Chris Puttick

Why can you not use an app or look at its source if it is under the
GPL? I'm intrigued...

Chris

On 27/01/07, lg3d@javadesktop.org wrote:
> > looking glass may look nice but it is licenced under
> > gpl. As long as that not change I am totaly not
> > interested in looking glass.
>
> That for me is an excellent reason to certainly NEVER look at the source and not create anything that uses its APIs.
> But it would not necessarilly mean I won't take a look at it if it were useful for me as an end user.
> [Message sent by forum member 'jwenting' (jwenting)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=199066
>
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>

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jwenting
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Joined: 2003-12-02

As long as I (and millions with me) can't run native Windows applications inside Looking Glass (starting with simple things like MS Office and for developers a commandprompt and Eclipse) the entire thing is completely useless to me.

So I'd start there if I were you, and expand into fancy things later once you have something that the majority of computer users can actually be productive with.

It looks good so far, but is little more than a toy for all but a small minority of users (though possibly not for the majority of people working on the product).

Chris Puttick

Odd, is that a Windows specific issue? I can't say I've tried to run
every application I have installed under LG, but so far they all at
least start.

On the other hand, LG is a research project in effect, and should be
experimenting with new ideas and capabilities, not focussed on making
legacy applications work. Legacy is legacy, and will never take
advantage of LG's features.

Chris

On 27/01/07, lg3d@javadesktop.org wrote:
> As long as I (and millions with me) can't run native Windows applications inside Looking Glass (starting with simple things like MS Office and for developers a commandprompt and Eclipse) the entire thing is completely useless to me.
>
> So I'd start there if I were you, and expand into fancy things later once you have something that the majority of computer users can actually be productive with.
>
> It looks good so far, but is little more than a toy for all but a small minority of users (though possibly not for the majority of people working on the product).
> [Message sent by forum member 'jwenting' (jwenting)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=199029
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@lg3d.dev.java.net
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>
>

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Pierre D.

Le Samstag 27 Januar 2007, Chris Puttick a écrit :
> Odd, is that a Windows specific issue? I can't say I've tried to run
> every application I have installed under LG, but so far they all at
> least start.
Yes, it's a windows specific issue. Supporting windows means rewriting a lot
of things. Nothing from the X11 apps support can be used for windows. And I
suppose there are several different APIs in windows (one API for 2000/XP,
another for Vista...)
And perhaps no way to use this API from Java easily, except writing a lot of
C/C++ code with JNI.

So the easiest way to launch windows apps in LG3D is : use Linux and Wine.

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jwenting
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Joined: 2003-12-02

> Le Samstag 27 Januar 2007, Chris Puttick a écrit :
> > Odd, is that a Windows specific issue? I can't say
> I've tried to run
> > every application I have installed under LG, but so
> far they all at
> > least start.
> Yes, it's a windows specific issue. Supporting
> windows means rewriting a lot
> of things. Nothing from the X11 apps support can be
> used for windows. And I
> suppose there are several different APIs in windows
> (one API for 2000/XP,
> another for Vista...)

actually, it's no different than supporting different versions of Linux.
The XP API is a superset of the Win2K API which is a superset of the NT4 API.

> And perhaps no way to use this API from Java easily,
> except writing a lot of
> C/C++ code with JNI.
>

That might be so, but that's no different from Mac, Solaris, or Linux.

> So the easiest way to launch windows apps in LG3D is
> : use Linux and Wine.
>

Which just doesn't work. Wine is highly unstable, doesn't support anything really, and is terribly slow.
And I (nor 99% of the rest of the world) am not going to install Linux just to play with a nice looking window manager.

Pierre D.

Le Samstag 27 Januar 2007, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> > Le Samstag 27 Januar 2007, Chris Puttick a écrit :
> > > Odd, is that a Windows specific issue? I can't say
> >
> > I've tried to run
> >
> > > every application I have installed under LG, but so
> >
> > far they all at
> >
> > > least start.
> >
> > Yes, it's a windows specific issue. Supporting
> > windows means rewriting a lot
> > of things. Nothing from the X11 apps support can be
> > used for windows. And I
> > suppose there are several different APIs in windows
> > (one API for 2000/XP,
> > another for Vista...)
>
> actually, it's no different than supporting different versions of Linux.
> The XP API is a superset of the Win2K API which is a superset of the NT4
> API.
No.
Different versions of UNIX based systems share the same X11 API.
You're just FUD-ing here, end of the discussion for me.

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jwenting
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Joined: 2003-12-02

> > actually, it's no different than supporting
> different versions of Linux.
> > The XP API is a superset of the Win2K API which is
> a superset of the NT4
> > API.
> No.
> Different versions of UNIX based systems share the
> same X11 API.
> You're just FUD-ing here, end of the discussion for
> me.
>
You misunderstand me, possibly deliberately.
While different versions of Unix may have the same X11, they may have different versions where older versions lack functionality that newer versions do have.
It's the same with Windows, where functionality is added in new versions.
If you have an API call that worked on Win2K, it'll still work on XP. In fact most if not all NT3.5 calls still work, and work the same, on XP.

Chris Puttick

Except X11 is free, an independent component rather than tied into a
OS and therefore while different *nix may have different versions of
X, but they all *can* have the latest version, and mostly will.

On 27/01/07, lg3d@javadesktop.org wrote:
> > > actually, it's no different than supporting
> > different versions of Linux.
> > > The XP API is a superset of the Win2K API which is
> > a superset of the NT4
> > > API.
> > No.
> > Different versions of UNIX based systems share the
> > same X11 API.
> > You're just FUD-ing here, end of the discussion for
> > me.
> >
> You misunderstand me, possibly deliberately.
> While different versions of Unix may have the same X11, they may have different versions where older versions lack functionality that newer versions do have.
> It's the same with Windows, where functionality is added in new versions.
> If you have an API call that worked on Win2K, it'll still work on XP. In fact most if not all NT3.5 calls still work, and work the same, on XP.
> [Message sent by forum member 'jwenting' (jwenting)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=199079
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@lg3d.dev.java.net
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>
>

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