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ALERT - synch between mailing list and forum had been broken

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Anonymous

roughly between (European time zone)

Sep 18, 2006 9:44 PM, Richard in "javabean ready for external review"

and

Sep 19, 2006 8:00 PM, the thread about the gap around taskpane

Jeanette

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Noel Grandin

Hi Erik

I don't think we're talking about dumping the web forum entirely.

I think we're just talking about dumping the 2-way synch, such that the
current forum becomes either a read-only mechanism, or a mailing list
archive.

So you'd still be able to lurk - you just wouldn't be able to post.

Though I don't quite get how using a gmail account would be different
from using a web forum.

Regards, Noel.

jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org wrote:
> I, for one, exclusively lurk on the forums, so I would be completely against going mailing list only. Also, I am unwilling/unable to use my work's email address for such a list and I detest webmail, so I wouldn't be able to "lurk" during the day if the forum was abandoned.
>
>
> Erik
> [Message sent by forum member 'evickroy' (evickroy)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=155512
>
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evickroy
Offline
Joined: 2004-07-23

> I think we're just talking about dumping the 2-way
> synch, such that the
> current forum becomes either a read-only mechanism,
> or a mailing list
> archive.

I don't think doing this would turn out the way you expect for reasons that Patrick stated above concerning the Desktop forums.

>
> So you'd still be able to lurk - you just wouldn't be
> able to post.

What's the fun in that? ;)

>
> Though I don't quite get how using a gmail account
> would be different
> from using a web forum.

At work, gmail access is restricted by our surfcontrol software, so no gmail access at work.

Erik

Noel Grandin

Hi

Then things are as bad as I thought.

If this project is NOT being run by the people who are actually
generating the code, then we don't have a real open source project here.

This is pretty fundamental to running open source projects - the leaders
need to be visible, active members of the code producing and consuming
community.

Regards,
Noel Grandin

Kleopatra wrote:
> Noel,
>
> I fully agree with you ... only
>
>> And since Jeanette, Richard, et.al. are the project leaders, are they
>> not also the defacto community leaders for the swingx project?
>
> you overestimate my influence and/or position ;-)
>
>
> Jeanette
>
>
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Patrick Wright

> Then things are as bad as I thought.
>
> If this project is NOT being run by the people who are actually
> generating the code, then we don't have a real open source project here.
>
> This is pretty fundamental to running open source projects - the leaders
> need to be visible, active members of the code producing and consuming
> community.

Again, speculation (since no one has told me to shut up yet): this is
a little more complicated. SwingLabs is both a way to develop Swing
extensions in an open-source forum, and also a testing ground for new
APIs that might make it into the JDK. Thus, none of us have the same
kind of freedom we might have if it were purely open-source (for
example, making incompatible or alternate APIs w/regards to the JDK),
and I imagine Richard is under more, and more subtle, pressures still.

On the other hand, we've all been able to participate in vetting ideas
and code that might make it into the JDK, which is new (and
unexpected, when they first started the project). So IMO it's a good
initiative with some limitations imposed by other, external factors.

Patrick

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Kleopatra

Noel,

I fully agree with you ... only

> And since Jeanette, Richard, et.al. are the project leaders, are they
> not also the defacto community leaders for the swingx project?

you overestimate my influence and/or position ;-)

Jeanette

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evickroy
Offline
Joined: 2004-07-23

I, for one, exclusively lurk on the forums, so I would be completely against going mailing list only. Also, I am unwilling/unable to use my work's email address for such a list and I detest webmail, so I wouldn't be able to "lurk" during the day if the forum was abandoned.

Erik

Bill Snyder

>
> I detest webmail, so I wouldn't be able to "lurk" during the day if the
> forum was abandoned.

Event gmail? ;) It's quite a handy tool for mailing list subscriptions.
If I had to choose one, I would choose the mailing list. But I know
sometimes its easier to browse online forums/archives - escpecially when
involved in several code projects. What about making the mailing list
primary and then pointing forum users to another site like Nabble?
[att1.html]

Kleopatra

Noel Grandin wrote:
> Isn't it time we switched to the more standard approach of using only a
> mailing list and making an archive of the mailing list visible on the web?
>

Until now, all suggestions to change anything didn't have much resonance ;-)

> This online-forum & mailing-list thing is obviously not working.
>
>

Please complain and "Use the proper channels which in this case in the
community leaders" (a citation from a brow-beating I got last time I
tried to apply some pressure through seemingly improper channels).

community_leader@javadesktop.org

Maybe flooding the "channels" has some effect. Honestly, I don't
understand what's going on here - maintaining a gateway can't be rocket
science.

Utterly frustrated
Jeanette

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Noel Grandin

Surely this is OUR project?

And therefore OUR mailinglist/forum?

Surely we get to decide which mechanisms of communication are most
appropriate for US?

And since Jeanette, Richard, et.al. are the project leaders, are they
not also the defacto community leaders for the swingx project?

And should the community leaders not be on this mailing list / forum anyhow?

If they are not, then we have fairly serious governance issues.

Kleopatra wrote:
> Noel Grandin wrote:
>> Isn't it time we switched to the more standard approach of using only a
>> mailing list and making an archive of the mailing list visible on the
>> web?
>>
>
> Until now, all suggestions to change anything didn't have much
> resonance ;-)
>
>> This online-forum & mailing-list thing is obviously not working.
>>
>>
>
> Please complain and "Use the proper channels which in this case in the
> community leaders" (a citation from a brow-beating I got last time I
> tried to apply some pressure through seemingly improper channels).
>
> community_leader@javadesktop.org
>
> Maybe flooding the "channels" has some effect. Honestly, I don't
> understand what's going on here - maintaining a gateway can't be rocket
> science.
>
> Utterly frustrated
> Jeanette
>
>
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Patrick Wright

Noel

As a fellow participant, I'm frustrated (as h**l) and agree with you.

Not to give ammunition to those who would oppose us :) but I
*speculate* one issue is that "SwingLabs" (of which right now SwingX
and JDIC are the active members) is sort-a kind-a part-a the "Java
Desktop" space/arena/community, and "Java Desktop" has a common forum
for all things Java-y and Desktopy. Someone made the (in retrospect,
not quite clever) move to link the project's mailing list (used for
discussion around soft dev) with the forum (usually for discussion and
support). This gives more visibility in the forum to the projects,
which makes the whole "Java Desktop" thingamagig look more active and
alive (which, as a matter of fact, it is). If we switch to using just
the mailing list we lose a bunch of traffic to the forums, which,
conversely, makes the whole community seem less alive.

Speculation, pure speculation.

Either way, the technology they are using sucks in a big way and I'm
not sure why we should put up with it.

Hey, anybody, any reason why we should put up with this?

Best and kindest regards
Patrick

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Kleopatra

Patrick,

>
> support). This gives more visibility in the forum to the projects,
> which makes the whole "Java Desktop" thingamagig look more active and
> alive (which, as a matter of fact, it is). If we switch to using just
> the mailing list we lose a bunch of traffic to the forums, which,
> conversely, makes the whole community seem less alive.
>
> Speculation, pure speculation.

on spot, as always

Jeanette

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Noel Grandin

Isn't it time we switched to the more standard approach of using only a
mailing list and making an archive of the mailing list visible on the web?

This online-forum & mailing-list thing is obviously not working.

Kleopatra wrote:
>
> roughly between (European time zone)
>
> Sep 18, 2006 9:44 PM, Richard in "javabean ready for external review"
>
> and
>
> Sep 19, 2006 8:00 PM, the thread about the gap around taskpane
>
> Jeanette
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: jdnc-unsubscribe@jdnc.dev.java.net
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>
>

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Patrick Wright

+1 on this, let's use one or the other.

My mail client is open all day and I can monitor a number of mailing
lists, filter them, and do wide-ranging and quick searches across a
number of projects. That's important to me and I don't want to have to
keep checking the forums (and logging in, paging during long threads,
etc.) throughout the day.

I'd rather declare victory, and retreat. It was a good idea that
hasn't panned out. And I can't imagine we'd lose much or any
readership because of it. For most FOSS projects, mailing lists are
still the way to go.

Regards
Patrick

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Kleopatra

Patrick Wright wrote:
> +1 on this, let's use one or the other.
>

+1 to exclusively use the mailinglist, -1 to exclusively use the forum.

But I think it's not quite easy to do (even if we can convince all our
hardcore community members to switch over to the mailinglist) - as long
as there _is_ a forum, there will be traffic on the forum. Then mainly
from first-timers which will get frustrated if their messages are
overlooked. My guess (may be a wrong interpretation of signs :) is that
any try to cutting the forum altogether will get strong head-wind from
California ;-)

Jeanette

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