Skip to main content

loooooong looooooong silence !

19 replies [Last post]
dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi All !

It makes a long time I didn't post anything to this forum ..
(I was following the discussions but just had nothing interesting to say (and not much time too))

Well I've tested the latest realease of lg3d on windows , and it runs pretty well and seems more stable/performant ... good job everybody !!

I would like to thanks the guy who packaged/jarred my application (gol3d) it made me pleasure to finally see it working out of the box !!!!

I like the new appz to !!!!

just a question : how is the X integration status (I've not tested the latest linux version yet)??
I've been following x.org mailing list as well as compiz mailing list and I'm currently reading 'The X Window System Server : X Version 11, Release 5'. by israel/fortune.

The options for my master thesis (after many changes) would be :
1. reimplemantation of the looking glass concept in the xgl/compiz paradigm (which I like !) (and in C/C++?)
or a better X11 integration in looking glass?

2. network X11 application sharing ,I mean working with 2 or more peoples on 1 application via the network (a bit like in Croquet Project : two persons can write/modify the same editor window distantly for example)

3. exploring physics engines and 3D for code visualisation and manipulation (which seems me really interesting, but I can't find good ideas of use of a physic engine for code visualization and manipulations, if you have ideas !!)

What do you all think about this ??????????????
Have you good ideas ?
Will the looking glass team be angry against me if I 'steal' all the looking glass concepts and reimplement them in C in the xgl/compiz engine ?????

and finally what do you all think about the bumptop demo ??
I think it is really promising but still a demo and not really usable with lots of files (imagine the garbage on your desktop with 500 files ;)

Cheers,
Mathieu aka dwarfy
:)

Reply viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
deronj
Offline
Joined: 2003-09-02

It is exciting that you are considering using LG3D
for your thesis project. You should also be aware of
what Croquet (opencroquet.org). They've done a lot of
work in this area.

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi !

>It is exciting that you are considering using LG3D
>for your thesis project.

Yes I think it too :)

I think I have found a teacher that will be my mentor. But I think he will only follow me for the academical side, I'll need the help of project owners and others for the technical side.
I'm currently reading the jxta programming guide and jxta is really a great piece of software !
I think that I will first make some tests with jxta (I'd like to implement a small IM software for lg3d) and then begin to explore how to use it to give p2p capabilities to lg3d and finally find how to share an lg3d-pure application via theses p2p capabilities (having thinked a bit about it, I don't think it will be doable so 'transparently' for the currently developped applications). Well that's still a bit obscure in my head ... (and we do not even talk about sharing a X11 integrated window...)

>You should also be aware of what Croquet opencroquet.org).
>They've done a lot of work in this area

Yes, I have allready wandered on their website :) It is of great interest about all this.

Mathieu

afishionado
Offline
Joined: 2004-05-26

I just had a random idea this morning.

How about a word processor (or other office app) that transparently saves documents in some CVS-like central repository? Perhaps if someone tries to open a file that someone else has a lock on, the application could try to open a chat link between the two people ("Just give me five more minutes!") Tying this back into LG3D, maybe there could be some way to use 3D to show how the file has been changed chronologically.

CVS for non-developers! :-)

I'm too tired right now to judge whether this is a good idea or not, so take it or leave it. ;-)

William

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Heya afishionado.

Nice idea !

I had another cool random idea.

What about a p2p incubator apps 'distributor' ?
Actually incubator apps are packages as "apps.jar" files (and included in the core distribution).

So it could be nice to have a kind of version system for theses apps.jar and when someone add/updates a apps.jar and decides it's ok for publishing it justs sets it in 'publish' mode and then it will automatically uploads on every people that has an old version of the app and accepts to upgrade Or to any people who doesn't have that app and want to have it (by browsing a kind of catalog or so) ?

?

It's nice to brainstorm a bit on what networking/p2p could bring to lg3d :)

Thanks

Mathieu

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi dwarfy,

> What about a p2p incubator apps 'distributor' ?

This is an excellent idea! :)

> It's nice to brainstorm a bit on what networking/p2p could bring to lg3d

Yes, it would be fun!

hideya

afishionado
Offline
Joined: 2004-05-26

Come to think of it, you could probably come up with a 3D Bittorrent front-end in just a week or two.

Maybe add a 3D UI for the torrent statistics like [url=http://linuxtracker.org/torrents-details.php?id=2033&dllist=1#seeders]LinuxTracker[/url] displays on their site. (Assuming that you can access that sort of info from the client side--I don't know if that's possible.)

William
Too many ideas, too little time. :-)

afishionado
Offline
Joined: 2004-05-26

> - we could imagine a web3D browser for lg3d where all
> the IP adresses are mapped on a 3D landscape and when
> you travel in the landscape you can see what services
> are bound to an ip, for example we could put a
> browser component if there is a HTTP server, a kind
> of 3D file browser if there is and FTP server,and so
> on (with a pluggable system), and to design a looking
> glass content server which would serve looking glass
> appz ... (imagine for example a 3D shop served by
> ebay ?)

I don't know how usable that would be for browsing the web, but man I would *love* to have something like that for browsing a local network. It would be fantastic to have an interface to browse raw IP addresses or use Samba to browse a Windoze network. +1!

(Maybe you could look into integrating this with the LG3D file manager?)

> - integrate looking glass in the ubuntu distribution
> (it should be fully integrated and be a part of the
> desktop ..)

Maybe you should talk to the Ubuntu people about a Lgubuntu distribution, alongside Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu. I would love to see that, too. +1!

William

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi !

>I don't know how usable that would be for browsing the web,
>but man I would *love* to have something like that for
>browsing a local network. It would be fantastic to have an
>interface to browse raw IP addresses or use Samba to browse
>a Windoze network. +1!

Well about the usability, i would like it to be usable as a common browser as well as giving the possibility to see it in '3D' ...

About the network range discovery, it could be interesting to have a kind of tool that can discover a network and make a graphical mapping of it, with the kind of interaction mentionned for the browser3d , interesting ...

>Maybe you should talk to the Ubuntu people about a
>Lgubuntu distribution, alongside Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and
>Xubuntu. I would love to see that, too. +1!

Yes !

Well right now, I'm just thinking and brainstorming.
I'll have to choose my subject for end september....

Thanks for your feedback.
Mathieu

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi dwarfy,

Just wanted to say "welcome back!" to you!!!
Very glad to see you in the forum :)

hideya

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi hideya !

Thank you.

As I said, I've been pretty busy last month but I'am still a looking glass convinced :)

It's nice to see the project is still moving forward...

Mathieu

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hey all!

I was reading the soc projects proposals and found this.

[b]Subject # / Title 108 - LG3D Shared Desktop
Suggested by Paul Byrne
Mentor (Volunteers) Paul Byrne
Description Use the lg3d environment to create a collaborative 3D space in which multiple users can see and interact with each others desktops. JXTA is the recommended technology for user discovery and collaboration setup.[/b]

It's a bit what I'm thinking about these days.
I really think I'm going to propose something like this to my teachers for my master thesis.
It mixes 2 subjects I really like : 3D desktop and networking/p2p !

Nice !

I'll dig more about it after my july's student job (microsoft word vba sh~t!) and my exams of august :'(

that motivates me!
Mathieu

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi dwarfy,

> Subject # / Title 108 - LG3D Shared Desktop
...
> It's a bit what I'm thinking about these days.
> I really think I'm going to propose something like this to > my teachers for my master thesis.

Very cool! 8-) It would be very fun project.

> I'll dig more about it after my july's student job (microsoft word vba sh~t!) and my exams of august :'(

Good luck for your job and exams! And thanks for your enthusiastic posts these days :)

hideya

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi !

pierre
>What does that mean ???
Well let's me explain it a bit more..
I think about implementing looking glass concepts like windows as real 3D objects, windows parking, moving 3D background , notes on the back of windows ...
But using xgl/compiz in the form of patches for xgl and/or compiz plugins .. (instead of having a java3D application integrating windows from the X server, I would like to have it integrated in X/Xgl/compiz/gnome (or kde) directly. Is it more clear ? it is still a bit unclear in my head too ...

Deronj
>What do you mean by "better?" (integration)
Here too maybe I was unclear, I was thinking about integrating looking glass concepts in the Xserver or the window manager or the desktop manager (but as I said, I'm not yet comfortable with all that huge amount of libraries and code and the relations between all of them..)

What would be interesting too, is to see if we could integrate LG 3D apps directly in a GL-enabled X server?
As Java3D is based upon OpenGL it seems me feasable but I don't know yet how ? (there could be a kind of coexistence of 3D'ed X apps and LG3D 3d apps in the 3d same space..)

About Bumptop, I think it is REALLY an interesting area of investigation, we'll wait the SOC LG3D physic engine project in order to see if a bumptop-like demo for lg3d is interesting ...

About XGL/Compiz...
As you are an Xwindow expert i'd like to ask you some questions to see if I have understood everything right or not ?

Firstly, Glitz is a OpenGL/GLSL based Hardware accelerated backend for Cairo, a 2D Vector based rendering library .

Xgl, is using Cairo/Glitz in order to replace/implement the Render model/extensions of the X server and then Hardware accelerate all the rendering tasks of the X server.

And about compiz, it is a xgl-aware window manager + composition manager ??? which just lay under the desktop manager ?

What I've understood is that with all this we can ,in some way, have textures of parts of our desktop/windows that can be mapped on 3D vertex objects or transformed via the graphic hardware ... So we could use that possibility of having theses hardware rendered textures of our environnement (application windows,..) and map them on 3D objects like in looking glass (there is still the problem of all the events redirection needed to map the 3d events to real X events ?
So it should be possible to have a kind of lg3d-like compiz manager ?

Let me know what you all think about this ?
Am I missing something ? Or bad understing things ?
Can someone explain me the interactions between the X server, the window manager, the desktop manager and the composition manager, and how this is all layered ?

Thanks,
Mathieu

Message was edited by: dwarfy

deronj
Offline
Joined: 2003-09-02

>
> What would be interesting too, is to see if we could
> integrate LG 3D apps directly in a GL-enabled X
> server?
> As Java3D is based upon OpenGL it seems me feasable
> but I don't know yet how ? (there could be a kind of
> coexistence of 3D'ed X apps and LG3D 3d apps in the
> 3d same space..)

Been there, done that. Putting Java3D into the X server
is the very first thing I looked at. Unfortunately,
Java3D is very thread rich and the X server is extremely
"thread hostile". It didn't work out. We had a discussion
about this on the composite manager alias and I was able
to convince folks that it's better to have the composite
manager outside the X server (As a general architectural
rule, working inside the X server should be avoided whenever possible).

> And about compiz, it is a xgl-aware window manager +
> composition manager ??? which just lay under the
> desktop manager ?

I believe it is a composite manager, just like the LG
Display Server. It manages all the rendering to the screen. It uses the Composite extension of the X server
to gain access to X window images so it can place them
into textures. It uses the OpenGL API in indirect mode
(that is, talking GLX protocol over the X communication
channel to the Mesa OpenGL implementation in the X server). I believe it uses OpenGL for all of its rendering, but it might use Cairo too. Unlike the LG
display manager, there is no 2D->3D input mapping, so
any 3D effects compiz does must be transient. That is,
you can't have any permanent, input-sensitive objects
slanted in Z.

> What I've understood is that with all this we can ,in
> some way, have textures of parts of our
> desktop/windows that can be mapped on 3D vertex
> objects or transformed via the graphic hardware ...
> So we could use that possibility of having theses
> hardware rendered textures of our environnement
> (application windows,..) and map them on 3D objects
> like in looking glass (there is still the problem of
> all the events redirection needed to map the 3d
> events to real X events ?
> So it should be possible to have a kind of lg3d-like
> compiz manager ?

Yes. I definitely believe it is possible. I would recommend starting with compiz (or Redhat's Luminosity
window manager, which is also a composite manager) and
in that code base adding a couple of things. First,
add a scene graph manager. OpenSceneGraph would be
an excellent library for this. Then define a remote
protocol will will allow clients to create scene graphs
and make dynamic updates to them. The more you make this
similar to the LG client API the better--it will help
with application interoperability. Then create a C++
binding library which generates this protocol which you
can link into GNOME apps. Back in the compiz process,
take the animation system of LG and recode it in terms
of C++ and OpenSceneGraph and add it to compiz. Lastly,
take the LG input redirection work I've done in the X
server and the LG display server and move it into compiz.
Then essentially what you've got is a version of the
LG Display Server written in C++ but which C++/GNOME
and LG Java applications can talk to (oh, and you also
would need to make a version of the LG Client API library
which talks your remote scene graph protocol). The main
benefit of such a system is that it would allow existing
GNOME apps to be upgraded to use 3D features without
staring from scratch.

>
> Let me know what you all think about this ?
> Am I missing something ? Or bad understing things ?
> Can someone explain me the interactions between the X
> server, the window manager, the desktop manager and
> the composition manager, and how this is all layered

The X server is at the center of the architecture. X
apps talk to it and send rendering requests to it. The
X server renders these requests into "backing pixmaps".
(offscreen memory). When running with a composite
manager, the X server typically does not render anything
directly to the screen.

The Composite manager performs all of the rendering to the
screen. It can directly perform 3D rendering as well as
copy backing pixmap images from the X server and put
these into textures and render with these.

As for input, in LG, the X server sends raw mouse and
keyboard events to the Display Server. For each mouse
event, the Display Server fires a ray into the scene and
detects what scene graph object is intersected. (This is
called picking). If the scene graph object for an X window
is hit, the intersection point is calculated and the
event is modified to look like a normal X event. If
a 3D object is hit (or a miss happens) a special 3D event
is generated. All events are then sent back to the X
server. The X server determines whether any application
is "grabbing" the input devices and, if so, sends the
events to this application. If no application is grabbing
the input devices, 2D events are sent to X apps (like
normal events) and 3D events are sent back to the Display
Server. These 3D events are then sent to LG3D apps
via the LG EventProcessor.

The Window Manager is a process which controls where X
applications live in the X servers idea of where windows
are on the screen (this may be different from the
LG Scene Manager's view--which is the one users actually
see). The window manager talks to the X server and tells
the X server which windows are really mapped on the screen. In LG, the window manager works in close cooperation with the Scene Manager to make sure that the
X server view of the screen and window hierarch is consistent with what the user is actually seeing on the
screen. In LG, we have found it most convenient if the
window manager lives inside the Display Server (aka
Composite Manager) but it could be an external process
if necessary.

As for desktop manager, I'm not really sure what that is.
We don't use this term in LG. Maybe it's the part of the window manager which provides the menus and the taskbar.
In LG, this would be part of the Scene Manager. In LG
the Scene Manager makes all decisions about where windows
are positioned and how big they are.

This is a quick whirlwind tour of the architecture. You can get more info if you hunt around the LG site and find
the original JavaOne 2004 presentation of LG.

You can also get more information about the changes
I've made to the X server in order to support this
architecture at:

http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/LookingGlassIntegration

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi !

>deronj
>(As a general architectural
rule, working inside the X server should be avoided whenever possible)

Ok !

>Yes. I definitely believe it is possible. I would >recommend starting with compiz (or Redhat's Luminosity
>window manager, which is also a composite manager) and
>in that code base adding a couple of things. First,
>add a scene graph manager. OpenSceneGraph would be
>an excellent library for this. Then define a remote
>protocol will will allow clients to create scene graphs
>and make dynamic updates to them. The more you make this
>similar to the LG client API the better--it will help
>with application interoperability. Then create a C++
>binding library which generates this protocol which you
>can link into GNOME apps. Back in the compiz process,
>take the animation system of LG and recode it in terms
>of C++ and OpenSceneGraph and add it to compiz. Lastly,
>take the LG input redirection work I've done in the X
>server and the LG display server and move it into compiz.
>Then essentially what you've got is a version of the
>LG Display Server written in C++ but which C++/GNOME
>and LG Java applications can talk to (oh, and you also
>would need to make a version of the LG Client API library
>which talks your remote scene graph protocol). The main
>benefit of such a system is that it would allow existing
>GNOME apps to be upgraded to use 3D features without
>staring from scratch.

So it seems a HUGE task for a one man job ! (too huge!)

Also thank you for the general explanation about the architecture :)

Well, let me explain why I'm talking about all this:

I'm searching a subject for my master thesis !

At the first time I was thinking to do something related to project looking glass (some times ago) then I talked with hideya , saying him that I was hesitating between making an AI-thing or a GUI-thing (I like those two subjects)
So hideya said me to go to speak to my AI teacher and to see what he was proposing .. so that's what I did and I talked a lot with him, read a lot .. and decided to do my master thesis about GUI things (the AI things were a bit too 'vapourous' for me ..)

Well So I want to do my master thesis on a GUI related thing (if it integrates a network part it could be interesting..) and I would like it to be a (good) contribution to a open-source project.

So I'm asking everybody here (especially the project owners) if someone has an interesting idea for me !!

The problem is that it must be accepted by my teachers !

So please make me propositions ...

Some ideas I have are :

-integrate a network side in looking glass (a bit like in the croquet project : have the possibility to share an application between to peoples via the net, or to make a king of net-room where you can work and other peoples (if you accept them) can come and work with you (for example, We could make a shareable workspace or something like that..)

-integrate looking glass in the X server or recode it starting from the compiz code base (But this seems to huge for me , deronj confirmed it to me)!!

- we could imagine a web3D browser for lg3d where all the IP adresses are mapped on a 3D landscape and when you travel in the landscape you can see what services are bound to an ip, for example we could put a browser component if there is a HTTP server, a kind of 3D file browser if there is and FTP server,and so on (with a pluggable system), and to design a looking glass content server which would serve looking glass appz ... (imagine for example a 3D shop served by ebay ?)

- explore what physics could do to ameliorate the desktop (for example like in bumptop) or to ameliorate 3D source code visualisation/exploration (one of my teachers is proposing this ..)

- integrate looking glass in the ubuntu distribution (it should be fully integrated and be a part of the desktop ..)

- any other interesting idea !

I've a lot of ideas BUT I've to fix a subject for end september !!!! (and it should be 'doable' by me in one year, so no too much ambitious ...)

Please give me your comments on this ...
Thank you in advance,

Mathieu (dwarfy)

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi everybody !

Since lg3d is designed as a server/client application,
it seems it will be possible to make my application server 'easily' (see my previous post)

And, if my teachers accept, I think I will work on this, and especially on making an applications servers that give the possibility to share an application between 2 or more users.
When I say 'share' an application, I mean to be able to see the SAME application by two peoples and to be able to work at the same time on the same application (for example we work with 2 peoples on a report we are writing in a word processor).

I'm thinking about a sharing container that will permit to see the mouse pointer of the other connected peoples and interact both on the same app.

I think it could be done transparently for the X server and so X apps could be 'shared' (If we work only on the 3D side and 3D events but I'm not sure about this)

The first thing would be to try looking glass with a client based on another machine than the server.

The second thing would be to see if the performance are good and if the applications are 'usable' ..

The third thing would be to inspect to see how we could achieve the share of the application (redirecting events from on client to the other and vice-versa, or having one people beeing the server and the others clients sending move requests or so)

I haven't had time to explore in depth this, but it seems me interesting ..
I'm currently working full-time as student (making vba macros for word (buuurrrpps)) then I have 2 exams ..
But in september I will begin to work seriously on this.
Until this time, It would be great if I could discuss about this with all the peoples in here, to see if it is an 'realistic' and 'doable' project and what would be the different ways of achieving this

Thanks in advance
Mathieu

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi all!

>I think it could be done transparently for the X server and so X apps could be 'shared' (If we work only on the 3D side and 3D events but I'm not sure about this)

In fact I think it will be more difficult with X apps. I will begin with invastigating it for the normal full 3D apps and we'll see after for X (but that would be fine to be able to 'serve' an X application over network and to 'share' it between multiple users ... (so we could run X apps over the network and with one guy under linux and the other under windows..)

deronj
Offline
Joined: 2003-09-02

> Well I've tested the latest realease of lg3d on
> windows , and it runs pretty well and seems more
> stable/performant ... good job everybody !!

Thanks. We rushed Release 0.8.0 too quickly because
of JavaOne so it's good to hear that we've regained
stability.

> just a question : how is the X integration status
> (I've not tested the latest linux version yet)??

The stability of the X11 integration is monotonically
increasing, but it's a slow process. There are still
significant amounts of bugs in this area. But, overall,
things are looking good. Several people are spending
large amounts of time in lg3d-app with no problems.

> I've been following x.org mailing list as well as
> compiz mailing list and I'm currently reading 'The X
> Window System Server : X Version 11, Release 5'. by
> israel/fortune.

This is a good book. It's the only book I've every seen
that describes the internals of the X server in any
detail.

> or a better X11 integration in looking glass?

What do you mean by "better?"

> Will the looking glass team be angry against me if I
> 'steal' all the looking glass concepts and
> reimplement them in C in the xgl/compiz engine ?????

It's an open source project, so the point is that you
can do what you want with it, within the licensing rules.
The X server LG code is MIT licensed, so you have
fairly free rein to do what you want with it. And if
you modify the code in the Display Server you need to
donate it back to the project (because of GPL). This
also applies if you are implementing things on top of the
Display Server.

I think I can speak for the other project owners when
I say that we would like to see a greater presence of
Looking Glass in Linux environments. If opportunities
exist for application-level compatibility between LG
and what you are talking about, I would encourage you
to do this. In other words, it would be very beneficial
for everybody if LG apps could run on your Display Server
(or whatever it is) and vice versa.

> and finally what do you all think about the bumptop
> demo ??

Very cool looking. I think it's worth doing some more
research in this area. It would be cool to have a version
running on LG

Pierre D.

Le Mardi 4 Juillet 2006 17:09, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Hi All !
Hi

> 1. reimplemantation of the looking glass concept in the xgl/compiz paradigm
> (which I like !) (and in C/C++?) or a better X11 integration in looking
> glass?
What does that mean ???

Xgl is only a X server, compiz is only a window+composite manager... Where is
the ""paradigm"" ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@lg3d.dev.java.net
For additional commands, e-mail: interest-help@lg3d.dev.java.net