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3D in 3D!

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deronj
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Joined: 2003-09-02
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Greetings LG fans,

Please refer to https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?folderID=264...

and click on gl_in_lg.jpg.

With the recent release of Nvidia's 8756 driver, OpenGL programs now run *INSIDE* Looking Glass. Check out the this image. This is running lg3d-app on Solaris x86 on an Ultra 20 with a Quadro FX 3000. The two glxgears windows are not still images--they are actually actively moving, running 3D OpenGL programs. Notice that OpenGL windows can be transparent in LG and they also can be slanted. While slanted, the gears on the right keep turning.

Best of all, I didn't have to do a thing. Nvidia did it all for me!
Many thanks to Andy Ritger and his driver team. Awesome job!

There is still a ways to go in the performance area, but the community is currently in the process of planning optimizations. Once we get it
fully tuned it will be an excellent differentiator from Windows Vista.
Also, as far as I know, ATI doesn't have this feature. As usual, Nvidia continues to pave the way.

-Deron

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deronj
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Joined: 2003-09-02
Points: 0

>
> On
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RenderingProject/aiglx
> is written:
> What else doesn't work with the composite manager?

Some features like overlays don't work on the Nvidia driver. These features are intended for use by high-end graphics (what they call "workstation") applications. See the 8756 driver README for details. This isn't really anything that affects LG.

> flickering because directGL program write directly to
> main framebuffer of
> the hardware.
> As I know AIGLX can't redirect directGL programs,
> those programs which
> access the hardware directly without talking directly
> to X server.
> To be clear to me, did you mean with AIGLX also XGL?

I'm not sure that AIGLX is completely productized, but
it's close, so you can pretty much assume that XGL will soon improve its graphics rendering performance in this way.

Amir Bukhari

>You confirm what I was supposing when I announced here the release of the
nVidia 8756 driver...
>But we should really work at supporting other drivers thanks to Aiglx. As
far as I know, aiglx enables such things for a lot of other drivers,
including the free ATI drivers.

Also nvidia support this since along time.

>Personally, I prefer the ATI drivers for one point of view : it's using the
standard way of writing 3D drivers on X : a DRM module, DRI and so on. With
nvidia, if
>you break your kernel module, no X (and that's quite easy). Great for the
end user. And also, ATI drivers are supporting every suspend feature since
more than
>6 months... Mandatory for a laptop.
DRI is not a standard it just a framework for allowing direct access to
graphics hardware under the X Window System in a safe and efficient manner.

>But we just can't say to ATI or to free drivers developers : "hey, nVidia
implemented this, why aren't you implementing this too ?". The nVidia driver
just can't
>be considered as an example. Their unified architecture is making their
driver just too different.
Yes we can not said to them implement this for us and I think we do not have
a DRI developer which can implements this for us.
I think also opensouce DRI doesn't support all cards which official driver
support and adding new cards will be higher priority that change the code
base to support this feature.

Nvidia and ATI are both great on MS Windows, but personal I think Nvidia is
the leader on Linux.

-Amir

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Pierre D.

Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 20:42, Amir Bukhari a écrit :
> > You confirm what I was supposing when I announced here the release of the
> > nVidia 8756 driver...
> > But we should really work at supporting other drivers thanks to Aiglx. As
> > far as I know, aiglx enables such things for a lot of other drivers,
> > including the free ATI drivers.
> Also nvidia support this since along time.
What do they support since a long time ? aiglx-like things ?
It's a new feature of the 8756 driver, 5 days isn't a long time for me !
> > Personally, I prefer the ATI drivers for one point of view : it's using
> > the
> > standard way of writing 3D drivers on X : a DRM module, DRI and so on.
> DRI is not a standard it just a framework for allowing direct access to
> graphics hardware under the X Window System in a safe and efficient manner.
Yes, sorry... de-facto standard is less wrong...

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Amir Bukhari

> Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 20:42, Amir Bukhari a écrit :
> > > You confirm what I was supposing when I announced here
> the release
> > > of the nVidia 8756 driver...
> > > But we should really work at supporting other drivers thanks to
> > > Aiglx. As far as I know, aiglx enables such things for a lot of
> > > other drivers, including the free ATI drivers.
> > Also nvidia support this since along time.
> What do they support since a long time ? aiglx-like things ?
> It's a new feature of the 8756 driver, 5 days isn't a long
> time for me !

The feature on 8756 driver is supporting GL applications to be redirected to
off-screen buffer with Xcompostie extension. Before this driver a GL window
can not be redirected to offscreen buffer from Xcomposite, because GL
doesn't be informed about this and it case to crash the server.

AIGLX is something else.

There are two ways that a windowing system can allow an OpenGL
implementation to talk to the graphics card. The first is to specify the
OpenGL command stream in a portable network-neutral manner using a
client/server implementation similar to the X11 drawing routines. This is
the indirect route as the drawing commands are sent to the X server and then
the xserver sends them along to the graphics card (This what AIGLX has
implemented). The second way is to open a window and then allow the OpenGL
library to send commands directly to the graphics card.
Xorg has it own libglx but this use software rendering.
Before AIGLX , only NVIDIA's implementation of libglx provided Accelerated
Indirect GLX and this was before at least 2 year. AIGLX will simplfy to add
support what nvidia now added.

-Amir

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Pierre D.

Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 21:42, Amir Bukhari a écrit :
> > Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 20:42, Amir Bukhari a écrit :
> > > > You confirm what I was supposing when I announced here
> >
> > the release
> >
> > > > of the nVidia 8756 driver...
> > > > But we should really work at supporting other drivers thanks to
> > > > Aiglx. As far as I know, aiglx enables such things for a lot of
> > > > other drivers, including the free ATI drivers.
> > >
> > > Also nvidia support this since along time.
> >
> > What do they support since a long time ? aiglx-like things ?
> > It's a new feature of the 8756 driver, 5 days isn't a long
> > time for me !
>
> The feature on 8756 driver is supporting GL applications to be redirected
> to off-screen buffer with Xcompostie extension. Before this driver a GL
> window can not be redirected to offscreen buffer from Xcomposite, because
> GL doesn't be informed about this and it case to crash the server.
>
> AIGLX is something else.
But AFAIK aiglx implements this feature too : redirection to offscreen buffers
of GL windows.
And here we were discussing about this feature only, weren't we ?

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Amir Bukhari

> Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 21:42, Amir Bukhari a écrit :
> > > Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 20:42, Amir Bukhari a écrit :
> > > > > You confirm what I was supposing when I announced here
> > >
> > > the release
> > >
> > > > > of the nVidia 8756 driver...
> > > > > But we should really work at supporting other drivers
> thanks to
> > > > > Aiglx. As far as I know, aiglx enables such things
> for a lot of
> > > > > other drivers, including the free ATI drivers.
> > > >
> > > > Also nvidia support this since along time.
> > >
> > > What do they support since a long time ? aiglx-like things ?
> > > It's a new feature of the 8756 driver, 5 days isn't a
> long time for
> > > me !
> >
> > The feature on 8756 driver is supporting GL applications to be
> > redirected to off-screen buffer with Xcompostie extension.
> Before this
> > driver a GL window can not be redirected to offscreen buffer from
> > Xcomposite, because GL doesn't be informed about this and
> it case to crash the server.
> >
> > AIGLX is something else.
> But AFAIK aiglx implements this feature too : redirection to
> offscreen buffers of GL windows.
> And here we were discussing about this feature only, weren't we ?
>
Can you point me where you have read this?

On http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RenderingProject/aiglx is written:
What else doesn't work with the composite manager?
Shaped windows and Xvideo are known to not work. Also, running other GL
applications may cause flickering or other weird effects. [end]

flickering because directGL program write directly to main framebuffer of
the hardware.
As I know AIGLX can't redirect directGL programs, those programs which
access the hardware directly without talking directly to X server.
To be clear to me, did you mean with AIGLX also XGL?

-Amir

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Pierre D.

Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 23:04, Amir Bukhari a écrit :
> Can you point me where you have read this?
>
> On http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RenderingProject/aiglx is written:
> What else doesn't work with the composite manager?
> Shaped windows and Xvideo are known to not work. Also, running other GL
> applications may cause flickering or other weird effects. [end]
Hey, I understood it another way, less explicit : "you can run GL apps, but
like with Xgl, it's a bit flickering or weird because the composite manager
is too slow (or some other issues being worked on)

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Pierre D.

Le Mercredi 12 Avril 2006 03:34, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Greetings LG fans,
>
> Please refer to
> https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectDocumentList?folderID=2645&e
>xpandFolder=2645&folderID=0
>
> and click on gl_in_lg.jpg.
>
> With the recent release of Nvidia's 8756 driver, OpenGL programs now run
> *INSIDE* Looking Glass. Check out the this image. This is running lg3d-app
> on Solaris x86 on an Ultra 20 with a Quadro FX 3000. The two glxgears
> windows are not still images--they are actually actively moving, running 3D
> OpenGL programs. Notice that OpenGL windows can be transparent in LG and
> they also can be slanted. While slanted, the gears on the right keep
> turning.
>
> Best of all, I didn't have to do a thing. Nvidia did it all for me!
> Many thanks to Andy Ritger and his driver team. Awesome job!
>
> There is still a ways to go in the performance area, but the community is
> currently in the process of planning optimizations. Once we get it fully
> tuned it will be an excellent differentiator from Windows Vista. Also, as
> far as I know, ATI doesn't have this feature. As usual, Nvidia continues to
> pave the way.
>
> -Deron
Hi

You confirm what I was supposing when I announced here the release of the
nVidia 8756 driver...
But we should really work at supporting other drivers thanks to Aiglx. As far
as I know, aiglx enables such things for a lot of other drivers, including
the free ATI drivers.
Personally, I prefer the ATI drivers for one point of view : it's using the
standard way of writing 3D drivers on X : a DRM module, DRI and so on. With
nvidia, if you break your kernel module, no X (and that's quite easy). Great
for the end user. And also, ATI drivers are supporting every suspend feature
since more than 6 months... Mandatory for a laptop.

But we just can't say to ATI or to free drivers developers : "hey, nVidia
implemented this, why aren't you implementing this too ?". The nVidia driver
just can't be considered as an example. Their unified architecture is making
their driver just too different.

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deronj
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Joined: 2003-09-02
Points: 0

I fully agree with you, Pierre. This support isn't going to be unique to Nvidia for very long; it's just that they are the first ones to have it. The ATI open source drivers will soon have it as well, and that is a good thing.

Unfortunately, ATI just doesn't seem seriously committed to Linux. Whenever I go to a trade show where ATI is attending, 90% of what I hear from them is about Direct3D, and only a small portion is about OpenGL. This year, at the X developers conference, they didn't even send a representative. And sure, there are open source drivers for some of their cards, but never for their latest and greatest cards. It takes the open source community so long to reverse engineer their latest cards that by the time they are done ATI has shipped a new series. And, in general, the ATI drivers I have encountered tend to be much less stable and error free than the Nvidia drivers.

But I certainly do hope to see ATI eventually catch up
to Nvidia in terms of composite-manager-friendliness, but
right now Nvidia is leading the race in that area.

alexlamsl
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Joined: 2004-09-02
Points: 0

This is way too cool~ ;-)

Radek Kierner

Hi Deron,

Huge step, now we can run gl games in lg on nvidia platforms.

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amirsadig
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Joined: 2004-07-01
Points: 0

Yeah, i have also tried this and could run a video withvideoLan.

I just wonder about the performance of LG on Quadro FX series.
how LG run inside them?

Quadro FX series are very expensive for normal user :-)

deronj
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Joined: 2003-09-02
Points: 0

> I just wonder about the performance of LG on Quadro
> FX series.
> how LG run inside them?

The performance of LG on Quadro FX is superior to the Geforce FX cards. On GeForce FX LG typically ends up consuming 50% of the CPU (due to the GeForce's copy form of buffer swapping). LG typically uses only 3% of my CPU on my Quadro machine.

But there is hope for the future. Nvidia admits that there is more optimization and tuning to do so hopefully we can work toward getting decent performance even on Geforce.