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aude
Offline
Joined: 2006-04-11

Hi hideya,

I'm sorry that my reply is slow.

> Hi pinaraf, ddew, steookk and aude,
>
> Thanks again for kindly volunteering your time for
> this effort (I hoped we'll see more people, but, oh
> well...).
> So, my understanding of your individual interest is:
>
> o pinaraf - platform
> o ddew - content
> o steookk - visual design
> o aude - coordination
>
> Sounds good? ddew, steookk and aude, it would be
> really great if you could post your ideas of how
> you'd like to participate this effort. It doesn't
> need to be long. One paragraph is enough (but it can
> be long, if you wish ;)).

Actually I don't understand the current situation yet.(sorry...)
So I want to start participating from the place that I can do. Where can I contribute?

aude

hideya
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Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi aude,

> Actually I don't understand the current situation yet.(sorry...)
> So I want to start participating from the place that I can do. Where can I contribute?

Thanks again for your willingness. As a starter, how about setting up your environment so that you can update the document and putback? If you are not familiar with CVS, I think using an IDE like NetBeans would be easier. Please see the following document to learn how to do it:

https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/netbeans/NetBeansLookingGlass.html

Once things all get set, one thing I'd like to work on is to move all the www contents out of lg3d-core and into lg3d. The contents grew a lot, which is great thing, but those are not needed for code development (which lg3d-core CVS's primary target). I'd like to make lg3d-core as light as possible (makes sense?). I thought that this is a good starter project for you (although it is not a creative work... Once you get used to the project, we can do much more creative ones ;)). What do you think?

hideya

aude
Offline
Joined: 2006-04-11

Hi hideya,

> Please see the following document to learn how to do it:
> https://lg3d-core.dev.java.net/netbeans/NetBeansLooki
> ngGlass.html

Ok, I'll check it.

> e (makes sense?). I thought that this is a good
> starter project for you (although it is not a
> creative work... Once you get used to the project, we
> can do much more creative ones ;)). What do you
> think?

I think it to be might be good as the first work.
First of all, I'll set NetBeans up.

aude

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hey everybody !

I just read this thread (well not everything)..

I'd like to know in what state this project is ?
I've a bit of experience in websites making and I'd like to help even tough I don't have that much time.

I think that the two first steps in every website design, are the sitemap design and the graphical design.

By sitemap I means complete structure of the site : what pages we need, what relations between pages, what content in pages and so ...

After the structure is done, we'll be able to pass to the graphical design of the site.

And then when we'll have static pictures of all the pages we'll be able to transforme all this in a website (the technologies used are just a matter of the preferences of the peoples coding it)

In short :
-----------

1. Design structure of the site, features, content (not the real content but what content goes where and so)

2. Visual design of main page, banners , colors and so on.

3. Coding of the real site.

4. tests on differents platforms/browsers.

So where are we in this process ?

I'd like to help..

Dwarfy

David Weizades

Hiya

Thought I'd pipe up a bit. Been busy the past few months, starting up a
business with a friend of mine.

If it's not too late I can offer my help with creating content (writing
articles and such) as well as testing the website on various browsers etc.

Sorry for my long absence, still love this project. :)

Cheers
/Dave

On 7/20/06, lg3d@javadesktop.org wrote:
>
> Hey everybody !
>
> I just read this thread (well not everything)..
>
> I'd like to know in what state this project is ?
> I've a bit of experience in websites making and I'd like to help even
> tough I don't have that much time.
>
> I think that the two first steps in every website design, are the sitemap
> design and the graphical design.
>
> By sitemap I means complete structure of the site : what pages we need,
> what relations between pages, what content in pages and so ...
>
> After the structure is done, we'll be able to pass to the graphical design
> of the site.
>
> And then when we'll have static pictures of all the pages we'll be able to
> transforme all this in a website (the technologies used are just a matter of
> the preferences of the peoples coding it)
>
> In short :
> -----------
>
> 1. Design structure of the site, features, content (not the real content
> but what content goes where and so)
>
> 2. Visual design of main page, banners , colors and so on.
>
> 3. Coding of the real site.
>
> 4. tests on differents platforms/browsers.
>
> So where are we in this process ?
>
> I'd like to help..
>
> Dwarfy
> [Message sent by forum member 'dwarfy' (dwarfy)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=134865
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@lg3d.dev.java.net
> For additional commands, e-mail: interest-help@lg3d.dev.java.net
>
>
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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Dave,

Glad to hear from you! Sorry for the lazy response -- I was out of office until the last week.

> If it's not too late I can offer my help with creating content (writing
> articles and such) as well as testing the website on various browsers etc.

Thanks for your kind offer! Yes, that would be very helpful. If you could first start composing some contents targeted at non-developer, it would be great. Because of JavaOne mess, etc., no one has actually worked on the contents. Another thing that would be helpful is to clean-up the current top page. Do you have any suggestion on this too?

hideya

P.S. It is great to know that you started your own company with your friend. Best wishes to your business!

dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hey david!

>P.S. It is great to know that you started your own company >with your friend. Best wishes to your business!

Yes, bonne chance david!

About the website are there some visual demos or so ?
I'd like to participate to the graphical process altough I'm not a graphist ...

For the technology I don't really know....
Will the content of this site change often or not ?
I personnaly think we should avoid server scripting when possible and make thing as light as possible.

If the content is going to change everyday then We should maybe think about a cms ? That would be easier to maintain (for localizations and ... among else) but that would be heavier.

It depends on the server load we are willing to handle on a non dev site (think about release 1.0 day(s) for example an after ...)?

What do you all think about it hideya, pierre, david and all ..
?

Dwarfy

David Weizades

Here are a few of my opinions, take them for what they are. The first
"targeted" users would /should probably be developers to get the ball
rolling with the app development. If the most major bugs (such as the
window-refreshing bug) can be fixed and we can get a little config app going
it will be usable as a desktop.

Anyways, what I'm proposing (if the devs are up for it) is kind of like a
little "developers blog" where quick words on accomplishments or problems
can be written or just status reports.

If the devs are too busy and/or thinks it's a stupid idea I'd be happy to
write small status reports saying things like "OK, deronj submitted a fix
for
and it seems to be working well but we would love more
testing of it. We've also added a basic configuration interface that you can
read more about over at
. Please play around with it and let us
know what you think in the forums."

This list is great, don't get me wrong. But I think we need to make the site
less static.

Just my 0.02 worth.
/Dave

On 7/25/06, lg3d@javadesktop.org wrote:
>
> Hey david!
>
> >P.S. It is great to know that you started your own company >with your
> friend. Best wishes to your business!
>
> Yes, bonne chance david!
>
> About the website are there some visual demos or so ?
> I'd like to participate to the graphical process altough I'm not a
> graphist ...
>
> For the technology I don't really know....
> Will the content of this site change often or not ?
> I personnaly think we should avoid server scripting when possible and make
> thing as light as possible.
>
> If the content is going to change everyday then We should maybe think
> about a cms ? That would be easier to maintain (for localizations and ...
> among else) but that would be heavier.
>
> It depends on the server load we are willing to handle on a non dev site
> (think about release 1.0 day(s) for example an after ...)?
>
> What do you all think about it hideya, pierre, david and all ..
> ?
>
> Dwarfy
> [Message sent by forum member 'dwarfy' (dwarfy)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=135974
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@lg3d.dev.java.net
> For additional commands, e-mail: interest-help@lg3d.dev.java.net
>
>
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dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi david !

I think the idea of a developpers blog is really cool.

We could post news and screenshots of the latests works.
And I do agree that it would be less static and specialised that this list. I would be just a kind of 'vitrine' of the latest developpements and should'nt be especially targeted to developpers (I think) but more for every 'geek' in the world.

The problem with this list is that you have to read a lot of mail in order to find the latest 'cool things' ...

And some people do not want to give that time (and read lost of technical things) but just want to see latest 'cool things' ...

Mathieu

David Weizades

Hi,

I'm up for keeping track of the changes, I follow the list pretty closely,
and as I'm no "proper" developer it'll be my little contribution. On a
day-to-day basis it's pretty much keeping track of major bugfixes and once a
week or so we can do an incubator-feature where we display a
note-worthy/innovative app with a short review or something.

Having a developer-oriented blog would (probably) be too much work and
anyone interested in developing apps for lg3d probably already subscribe to
the list. But if some dev would like to put together a short tutorial once
in a while I'm not against it getting published. ;)

Any comments?
/Dave

On 7/25/06, lg3d@javadesktop.org wrote:
>
> Hi david !
>
> I think the idea of a developpers blog is really cool.
>
> We could post news and screenshots of the latests works.
> And I do agree that it would be less static and specialised that this
> list. I would be just a kind of 'vitrine' of the latest developpements and
> should'nt be especially targeted to developpers (I think) but more for every
> 'geek' in the world.
>
> The problem with this list is that you have to read a lot of mail in order
> to find the latest 'cool things' ...
>
> And some people do not want to give that time (and read lost of technical
> things) but just want to see latest 'cool things' ...
>
> Mathieu
> [Message sent by forum member 'dwarfy' (dwarfy)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=136120
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@lg3d.dev.java.net
> For additional commands, e-mail: interest-help@lg3d.dev.java.net
>
>
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dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Hi again!

What about lookingglass.blogspot.com
or lg3d.blogspot.com

it's google blog engine ...
Well it's up to you to choose your preferred blog site ..

But that's definitively a good idea :)
(for me at least)

mathieu

David Weizades

Hi

Well, if you're up for helping me out in adding content (of course not as
much as I will, we need your code in lg3d-core :P ) I'm all up for it. I'd
just like a "seal of approval" from the Sun-guys. :)

Cheers
/Dave

On 7/25/06, lg3d@javadesktop.org wrote:
>
> Hi again!
>
> What about lookingglass.blogspot.com
> or lg3d.blogspot.com
>
> it's google blog engine ...
> Well it's up to you to choose your preferred blog site ..
>
> But that's definitively a good idea :)
> (for me at least)
>
> mathieu
> [Message sent by forum member 'dwarfy' (dwarfy)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=136226
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: interest-unsubscribe@lg3d.dev.java.net
> For additional commands, e-mail: interest-help@lg3d.dev.java.net
>
>
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dwarfy
Offline
Joined: 2004-12-16

Ok I'm in !

But as I said I'm a bit busy theses last days.
But so are you ..

We'll find some time :)

(the advantage of blogs is the easyness of article writing)
(and in addition you can add/edit from everywhere)
(no need to check out / in the lg3d home page and edit it in a editor...)

Nice !

We'll wait for the 'amen' of project owners and we are gone...

Cheers
Mathieu

ps :

I tough about another interesting thing :
Creating a shared google calendar for the project !
And anybody of the 'team' will be able to post things on it. and browsing it would be open to everybody...

hideya
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Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

Too bad to know that your web site is lost... I wished that we could have prepared some other place to store a backup, but, as Paul mentioned, things are moving slowly on our side at this moment. We've just informed that Sun won't be able to provide some help on LG3D page refinement until JavaOne ends. I'm not happy about it, of course. We'll keep pushing our managers for more help.

> I'm considering a bit impolite not to react when such propositions are done...

Yeah, I see your point...

> But I think it's only my way of thinking that's unusual.

The goal here I think is to get more people involved and make better web site. I don't care if someone's way of thinking is usual or unusual, as long as it puts priority on achieving the goal and makes effort toward it.

hideya

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

> > I'm considering a bit impolite not to react when such propositions are done...
>
> Yeah, I see your point...
>
> > But I think it's only my way of thinking that's unusual.
>
> The goal here I think is to get more people involved and make better web site. I don't care if someone's way of thinking is usual or unusual, as long as it puts priority on achieving the goal and makes effort toward it.

I should have added a few more words -- I'm not saying the above paragraph to Pierre only. I'd appreciate it if you could get back to Pierre and us with comments regarding Pierre's work without being asked, even if it is not your or your cultural style. Pierre is making his effort by providing thoughts, discussions and the prototype. I think we (including myself) could have been more proactive...

hideya

Pierre D.

Le Vendredi 24 Mars 2006 17:11, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> I could help with the backend-coding, too.
> (Have some knowledge of LAMP and Perl).
> But we'll probably need some guys who are good
> at CSS, JavaScript, etc...
>
> Will we use AJAX?
Hi

I'm sorry I don't understand why you'd use AJAX.
What do *you* call AJAX ? For me, AJAX means Asynchronous Javascript And XML.
There is no need of AJAX on a website ! We'd only need Javascript, CSS, some
translucent PNG pictures... Why should we add XML transfers ? I already
played with it, but it's not to be used on a website :
1- hard to have cross-browsers compatibility
2- make the back/forward buttons, history and bookmarks unusable
3- add an overload for the server, the website...

AJAX is great for an application. It's only a source of problems for a
website.

Still no news about the hosting ? We need to know which language will be
available with which features ? PHP ? JSP ? PSP ? MySQL ? PostgreSQL ?
Sqlite ?

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hideya
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Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

> AJAX is great for an application. It's only a source of problems for a
> website.

I share the same concern and understanding, but at this moment, how about trying to gather ideas? We may not need to provide AJAX server side by ourselves. Google Map AJAX API, for example, may let us do something interesting for us (e.g. show where on the earth community members locate).

I think it is a fine idea for someone to use AJAX on LG3D site to experiment a new UI possibility for web pages. Although, this is DEFINITELY AFTER the first step -- starting up a reasonable non-developer focused web page. we shouldn't focus on this from the beginning.
Does this make sense?

> Still no news about the hosting ? We need to know which language will be
> available with which features ? PHP ? JSP ? PSP ? MySQL ? PostgreSQL ?
> Sqlite ?

Yeah, sorry for the delay. I don't intend to put a spotlight at Paul, but he is talking with the person who manages the javadesktop.org site (where we are trying to put LG3D contents) and he is fully occupied this week. Please give us a few more days to get back to you folks with more details.

However, here is what I've heard -- on the language side, we can use whatever language we wish (PHP, JSP, PSP, etc). However, they would like to avoid us to use any database on the server side (including MySQL, PostgreSQL, Sqlite).

Before deciding implementation details, how about starting with gathering requirements and doing a bit of research? -- what kind of user experience we'd like to achieve by using what kind of technology. We can gather info on existing web pages that we should learn from, and research what kind of language and techniques they use (and how complex/simple the implementation would be). Then, I think we can make well educated decision about which direction we should go with our non-developer focused web page... Just a thought...

hideya

Pierre D.

Le Samedi 25 Mars 2006 18:05, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Hi Pierre,
>
> > AJAX is great for an application. It's only a source of problems for a
> > website.
>
> I share the same concern and understanding, but at this moment, how about
> trying to gather ideas? We may not need to provide AJAX server side by
> ourselves. Google Map AJAX API, for example, may let us do something
> interesting for us (e.g. show where on the earth community members locate).
I agree we can use extra AJAX applications, but why should we write our
website as an AJAX app ?
> I think it is a fine idea for someone to use AJAX on LG3D site to
> experiment a new UI possibility for web pages.
AJAX isn't related to UI : Javascript, CSS and DOM manipulation are enough.
> Although, this is DEFINITELY AFTER the first step -- starting up a
> reasonable non-developer focused web page. we shouldn't focus on this from
> the beginning. Does this make sense?
>
> > Still no news about the hosting ? We need to know which language will be
> > available with which features ? PHP ? JSP ? PSP ? MySQL ? PostgreSQL ?
> > Sqlite ?
>
> Yeah, sorry for the delay. I don't intend to put a spotlight at Paul, but
> he is talking with the person who manages the javadesktop.org site (where
> we are trying to put LG3D contents) and he is fully occupied this week.
> Please give us a few more days to get back to you folks with more details.
Ok, no problem...
> However, here is what I've heard -- on the language side, we can use
> whatever language we wish (PHP, JSP, PSP, etc).
Great news... I personally prefer PHP to write webpages..
> However, they would like to avoid us to use any database on the server side
> (including MySQL, PostgreSQL, Sqlite).
We can still use XML or pure txt files to store informations...

> Before deciding implementation details, how about starting with gathering
> requirements and doing a bit of research? -- what kind of user experience
> we'd like to achieve by using what kind of technology. We can gather info
> on existing web pages that we should learn from, and research what kind of
> language and techniques they use (and how complex/simple the implementation
> would be). Then, I think we can make well educated decision about which
> direction we should go with our non-developer focused web page.... Just a
> thought...
That's what I'm currently doing. BTW, I warn you I don't have any windows
here, so I can't test what I'm doing with IE (considering the cost of the IE
license, I won't install it in wine). I only hope IE doesn't suck too much at
simple DOM manipulation, Javascript events... (well, it's more a dream than a
hope).
Remember I'm not a designer, so my first mockup will look extremly bad.
I'm trying to reproduce a kind of window manager using Javascript : it means
you can hide a window, move it, make it translucent (CSS 3 only, and as far
as I know only mozilla, opera and safari support this attribute)...

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

> I agree we can use extra AJAX applications, but why should we write our
> website as an AJAX app ?

Who said we should write our website as an AJAX app??? ;)

> AJAX isn't related to UI : Javascript, CSS and DOM manipulation are enough.

I'd say it IS related to UI and user experience. The question is if we need it in order to achieve what we want.

> > Before deciding implementation details, how about starting with gathering
> > requirements and doing a bit of research? -- what kind of user experience
> > we'd like to achieve by using what kind of technology. We can gather info
> > on existing web pages that we should learn from, and research what kind of
> > language and techniques they use (and how complex/simple the implementation
> > would be). Then, I think we can make well educated decision about which
> > direction we should go with our non-developer focused web page.... Just a
> > thought...
> That's what I'm currently doing.

Great! Thanks for doing that. Please keep us informed about your findings and recommendations.

> BTW, I warn you I don't have any windows
> here, so I can't test what I'm doing with IE (considering the cost of the IE
> license, I won't install it in wine). I only hope IE doesn't suck too much at
> simple DOM manipulation, Javascript events... (well, it's more a dream than a
> hope).

Yeah, I understand. Although I don't like it as much as you do, but thinking about the nature of our target audience (non-developers), we cannot ignore it... I'd say one of our requirement for our non-developer focused web site. This doesn't mean that you, Pierre, need to check the pages with IE one by one. We need help from someone who can work with you regarding IE compatibility. Does this sound reasonable, Pierre?

> Remember I'm not a designer, so my first mockup will look extremly bad.

Sounds good to me. I think we shouldn't spend too much time for its visual in the initial mock-up stage.

> I'm trying to reproduce a kind of window manager using Javascript : it means
> you can hide a window, move it, make it translucent (CSS 3 only, and as far
> as I know only mozilla, opera and safari support this attribute)...

Would you mind to explain us what you are trying to achieve? Is there any website that looks similar to what you are thinking? What kind of information do you want to show on the windows? etc, etc.

hideya

Pierre D.

Le Samedi 25 Mars 2006 22:28, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Hi Pierre,
>
> > I agree we can use extra AJAX applications, but why should we write our
> > website as an AJAX app ?
>
> Who said we should write our website as an AJAX app??? ;)
>
> > AJAX isn't related to UI : Javascript, CSS and DOM manipulation are
> > enough.
>
> I'd say it IS related to UI and user experience. The question is if we
> need it in order to achieve what we want.
UI is related to Javascript only. But since user experience can mean
everything, yes AJAX is related to user experience.
But it's extremely risky to rely on AJAX technology for a website :
1- It's not implemented correctly in any browser
2- It just sucks in IE because it rely on an ActiveX there (yes, that's
stupid, but it's microsoft rules...)
A web site relying on AJAX just won't work or will be really broken in IE with
no solution because activex are more and more disabled in default
installations (isn't it disabled by default in xp sp2 ?)

> > BTW, I warn you I don't have any windows
> > here, so I can't test what I'm doing with IE (considering the cost of the
> > IE license, I won't install it in wine). I only hope IE doesn't suck too
> > much at simple DOM manipulation, Javascript events... (well, it's more a
> > dream than a hope).
>
> Yeah, I understand. Although I don't like it as much as you do, but
> thinking about the nature of our target audience (non-developers), we
> cannot ignore it... I'd say one of our requirement for our non-developer
> focused web site. This doesn't mean that you, Pierre, need to check the
> pages with IE one by one. We need help from someone who can work with you
> regarding IE compatibility. Does this sound reasonable, Pierre?
There is perhaps another solution, but I can't try it neither :
http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/
I give the code I write, but I can't add and test the code to use this "hack".

> > I'm trying to reproduce a kind of window manager using Javascript : it
> > means you can hide a window, move it, make it translucent (CSS 3 only,
> > and as far as I know only mozilla, opera and safari support this
> > attribute)...
>
> Would you mind to explain us what you are trying to achieve? Is there any
> website that looks similar to what you are thinking? What kind of
> information do you want to show on the windows? etc, etc.
I don't know if any website looks like it. What I want to achieve is a website
with an iconbar on the bottom, looking like the LG3D sidebar, which then open
windows for each document, allowing the user to compare more easily two
mockups (if we had a mockup section in the website), or providing a neat way
to explain some words...

http://pinaraf.info/website/parts/wm/
=> a click on a link show an explanation of the word (currently, it's
hardcoded in Javascript)
=> there are two icons in each window. The small arrow on the left isn't
working in browsers without CSS3 opacity support. It progressively makes the
window translucent. When you click it back, then the window come back to full
opacity. The close button on the right is a ... close button.

Off course, you can move windows : click on a window title, and just move the
mouse !
Next step is an iconbar at the bottom, with some perhaps nicer effects.

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

> But it's extremely risky to rely on AJAX technology for a website :
> 1- It's not implemented correctly in any browser
> 2- It just sucks in IE because it rely on an ActiveX there (yes, that's
> stupid, but it's microsoft rules...)
> A web site relying on AJAX just won't work or will be really broken in IE with
> no solution because activex are more and more disabled in default
> installations (isn't it disabled by default in xp sp2 ?)

These are good points (although Google is doing a great job regarding this, it must have taken great amount of time and testing). I share the same concern with you.

> There is perhaps another solution, but I can't try it neither :
> http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/
> I give the code I write, but I can't add and test the code to use this "hack".

Thanks, Pierre. This is a great finding. So, does anyone would volunteer to help us out regarding IE support and testing?

> http://pinaraf.info/website/parts/wm/
> => a click on a link show an explanation of the word (currently, it's
> hardcoded in Javascript)
> => there are two icons in each window. The small arrow on the left isn't
> working in browsers without CSS3 opacity support. It progressively makes the
> window translucent. When you click it back, then the window come back to full
> opacity. The close button on the right is a ... close button.

Thanks. I see. Looks cool :) (and the design is not that bad ;)) You might want to check out the following sites:

- http://www.24eyes.com/

Displays each registered RSS feed in a independent "window" on the page.

- http://www.bitty.com/

"Bitty is the little browser that goes on any Web page, it's like Picture-in-Picture for the Web."

(see, I can sometimes provide you possibly useful info even if it is not directly related to LG3D ;))

Hope this helps, and please keep us informed about your progress on the your trial. There are a few people who are volunteering to help on the platform part. It would be great if you could think how you could get them involved.

hideya

Pierre D.

Le Dimanche 26 Mars 2006 09:30, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Hi Pierre,
>
> > But it's extremely risky to rely on AJAX technology for a website :
> > 1- It's not implemented correctly in any browser
> > 2- It just sucks in IE because it rely on an ActiveX there (yes, that's
> > stupid, but it's microsoft rules...)
> > A web site relying on AJAX just won't work or will be really broken in IE
> > with no solution because activex are more and more disabled in default
> > installations (isn't it disabled by default in xp sp2 ?)
>
> These are good points (although Google is doing a great job regarding this,
> it must have taken great amount of time and testing). I share the same
> concern with you.
There don't fix the problems with IE. If you disable ActiveX in IE, you can't
use gmail. Just try with any browser where you can change user agent :
identify as IE, and try to connect to gmail.com... Since they don't support
(the stupid, useless and dangerous) activex, gmail tell you you have to
enable them.

> > http://pinaraf.info/website/parts/wm/
> > => a click on a link show an explanation of the word (currently, it's
> > hardcoded in Javascript)
> > => there are two icons in each window. The small arrow on the left isn't
> > working in browsers without CSS3 opacity support. It progressively makes
> > the window translucent. When you click it back, then the window come back
> > to full opacity. The close button on the right is a ... close button.
>
> Thanks. I see. Looks cool :) (and the design is not that bad ;)) You
> might want to check out the following sites:
>
> - http://www.24eyes.com/
> Displays each registered RSS feed in a independent "window" on the page.
Quite nice looking. But totally unusable considering the source code : that's
not as bad as google (google developers obfuscate and compress their
javascripts, they created a Javascript compiler probably ;) ), but it's a big
one liner, with some cryptic things...
> - http://www.bitty.com/
> "Bitty is the little browser that goes on any Web page, it's like
> Picture-in-Picture for the Web."
It's patent pending... I'm not going to look at it any longer, I hate patents
on ideas !
> (see, I can sometimes provide you possibly useful info even if it is not
> directly related to LG3D ;))
>
> Hope this helps, and please keep us informed about your progress on the
> your trial. There are a few people who are volunteering to help on the
> platform part. It would be great if you could think how you could get them
> involved.
I think that the way I'm working can be applied to an entire project : I wrote
this ""wm"" in one piece, one block of code. If somebody write an iconbar,
it'd be another piece of code. Then another people could merge them into a
"desktop" and so on.
For a platform, we could use PHP5 and have somebody working on the storage
part, somebody else working on the edition part and so on... It's only a
matter of defining clear interfaces to implement.

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

Thanks for the explanation on what you are trying to achieve.

> I think that the way I'm working can be applied to an entire project : I wrote
> this ""wm"" in one piece, one block of code. If somebody write an iconbar,
> it'd be another piece of code. Then another people could merge them into a
> "desktop" and so on.
> For a platform, we could use PHP5 and have somebody working on the storage
> part, somebody else working on the edition part and so on... It's only a
> matter of defining clear interfaces to implement.

Sounds reasonable to me, but I think you should ask the other community members if this approach and the window-based UI are fine with them. What do you think?

hideya

Pierre D.

Le Mardi 28 Mars 2006 04:50, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Hi Pierre,
Hi
> Thanks for the explanation on what you are trying to achieve.
>
> > I think that the way I'm working can be applied to an entire project : I
> > wrote this ""wm"" in one piece, one block of code. If somebody write an
> > iconbar, it'd be another piece of code. Then another people could merge
> > them into a "desktop" and so on.
> > For a platform, we could use PHP5 and have somebody working on the
> > storage part, somebody else working on the edition part and so on... It's
> > only a matter of defining clear interfaces to implement.
>
> Sounds reasonable to me, but I think you should ask the other community
> members if this approach and the window-based UI are fine with them. What
> do you think?
I think that what I did was already a question to the other community
members... If they're interested by a new website, they should follow this
thread !

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

> I think that what I did was already a question to the other community
> members... If they're interested by a new website, they should follow this
> thread !

So, the LG3D community people, any comments on the discussions so far?

Pierre, I have a favor -- would you please try to explicitly ask for comments in future whenever you think appropriate? In some culture (e.g. Japanese), it is sometimes considered impolite to ask questions before encouraged to do so. Please remember that the LG3D community consists people who have different backgrounds.

Thanks,
hideya

Pierre D.

Le Mardi 28 Mars 2006 20:10, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> > I think that what I did was already a question to the other community
> > members... If they're interested by a new website, they should follow
> > this thread !
>
> So, the LG3D community people, any comments on the discussions so far?
>
> Pierre, I have a favor -- would you please try to explicitly ask for
> comments in future whenever you think appropriate? In some culture (e.g.
> Japanese), it sometimes considered impolite to ask questions before
> encouraged to do so. Please remember that the LG3D community consists
> people who share different backgrounds.
Hi

I'm considering a bit impolite not to react when such propositions are done...
But I think it's only my way of thinking that's unusual.

I'm not going to really work on the Looking Glass website for some time : my
website is lost, so I'm going to rewrite it from scratch. So I'll use it as
an experimentation platform for the LG3D website... But I have no time left
at all (my weekend is lost)

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paulby
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-13

Hi Pierre,

Sorry to hear you lost your site, what happened ?

As Hideya mentioned I've been talking to the java.net folks about hosting our user (as opposed to developer) pages on another server so we have more flexibility in terms of server side languages etc. We have a machine ear marked as the server but we have not figured out the adminstration process yet. Things are starting to get crazy in preperation for JavaOne so I don't expect we will have server ready until after the show. Pierre please keep me appraised of the server side technologies you would like to use and I'll keep the java.net folks updated.

Cheers

Paul

aude
Offline
Joined: 2006-04-11

Hello
I'm interested in LG3D.
I want to join to your project.
But I'm not familiar with programming, so I want to help coordinating new LG3D web page development work.
Could you tell me how to contribute?

aude

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi aude,

Thanks for your kind offer!

> I'm interested in LG3D.
> I want to join to your project.
> But I'm not familiar with programming, so I want to help coordinating new LG3D web page development work.

Sounds great. There are lots of things that need help from non-programmers. It would be really helpful is you could help us coordinate the new non-developer targeted home page work.

> Could you tell me how to contribute?

Please check out the following page, and send us your signed JCA.

https://lg3d.dev.java.net/contribute.html

Sending it via Email is quicker and easier. Once you submit it, please file a request for a Content Developer role for the lg3d-core project, for now.

Thanks again for your support!

hideya

aude
Offline
Joined: 2006-04-11

Hi Hideya,

Thank you for your reply!

> Sounds great. There are lots of things that need
> help from non-programmers. It would be really
> helpful is you could help us coordinate the new
> non-developer targeted home page work.

I'm very glad to hear it.

> Please check out the following page, and send us your
> signed JCA.
> Sending it via Email is quicker and easier. Once you
> submit it, please file a request for a Content
> Developer role for the lg3d-core project, for now.
>
> Thanks again for your support!
>
> hideya

OK. I'll check it.
Thank you so much.

aude

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi aude,

We've received your signed JCA and it is filed on our side. Thanks for your prompt action. I'll send out another email to move forward the effort.

hideya

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi pinaraf, ddew, steookk and aude,

Thanks again for kindly volunteering your time for this effort (I hoped we'll see more people, but, oh well...).
So, my understanding of your individual interest is:

o pinaraf - platform
o ddew - content
o steookk - visual design
o aude - coordination

Sounds good? ddew, steookk and aude, it would be really great if you could post your ideas of how you'd like to participate this effort. It doesn't need to be long. One paragraph is enough (but it can be long, if you wish ;)).

Pierre, I think to take back my words -- seeing the level of willingness to help this effort, I don't ask you to ask other folks for input explicitly. Please feel free to run as fast as you can, and create something very cool (when you get time and your situation becomes better). As long as you keep up updated (which you usually do well), now I think you should pick whatever way you feel comfortable to make progress. Sorry if my previous post confused you...

Please let me know if you have any questions/suggestions/etc.

hideya

Pierre D.

Le Vendredi 14 Avril 2006 00:04, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Hi pinaraf, ddew, steookk and aude,
>
> Thanks again for kindly volunteering your time for this effort (I hoped
> we'll see more people, but, oh well...). So, my understanding of your
> individual interest is:
>
> o pinaraf - platform
> o ddew - content
> o steookk - visual design
> o aude - coordination
>
> Sounds good? ddew, steookk and aude, it would be really great if you could
> post your ideas of how you'd like to participate this effort. It doesn't
> need to be long. One paragraph is enough (but it can be long, if you wish
> ;)).
>
> Pierre, I think to take back my words -- seeing the level of willingness to
> help this effort, I don't ask you to ask other folks for input explicitly.
> Please feel free to run as fast as you can, and create something very cool
> (when you get time and your situation becomes better). As long as you keep
> up updated (which you usually do well), now I think you should pick
> whatever way you feel comfortable to make progress. Sorry if my previous
> post confused you...
Ok, I'll continue my work on the website.

BTW, I've set up something on pinaraf.info to ease the development :
1- new subdomain : http://lg3d.pinaraf.info
2- new FTP user for this subdomain only

So we can perfectly develop the website using my hosting account. It supports
PHP5, Python Server Page, MySQL and everything we could need.
Anybody who want to start working, submit things, test them... can ask me for
the username and password...

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

> > Pierre, I think to take back my words -- seeing the level of willingness to
> > help this effort, I don't ask you to ask other folks for input explicitly.
> > Please feel free to run as fast as you can, and create something very cool
> > (when you get time and your situation becomes better). As long as you keep
> > up updated (which you usually do well), now I think you should pick
> > whatever way you feel comfortable to make progress. Sorry if my previous
> > post confused you...
> Ok, I'll continue my work on the website.

Great! Thanks!

> BTW, I've set up something on pinaraf.info to ease the development :
> 1- new subdomain : http://lg3d.pinaraf.info
> 2- new FTP user for this subdomain only
>
> So we can perfectly develop the website using my hosting account. It supports
> PHP5, Python Server Page, MySQL and everything we could need.

Great! Thanks for your support for this.
One question -- what do you think about Ruby, especially Ruby on Rails?

> Anybody who want to start working, submit things, test them... can ask me for
> the username and password...

Please provide one for me! Username 'hideya'. Please send my initial password to my @dev.java.net account.

Thanks,
hideya

Pierre D.

Le Samedi 15 Avril 2006 20:54, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Hi Pierre,
> > BTW, I've set up something on pinaraf.info to ease the development :
> > 1- new subdomain : http://lg3d.pinaraf.info
> > 2- new FTP user for this subdomain only
When I said set up, it wasn't installation/compilation of softwares, but
settings of my account...
> > So we can perfectly develop the website using my hosting account. It
> > supports PHP5, Python Server Page, MySQL and everything we could need.
>
> Great! Thanks for your support for this.
> One question -- what do you think about Ruby, especially Ruby on Rails?
I wasn't clear, sorry... It's not hosted on my computer neither on a computer
I control... I fear ruby isn't available on this hosting. It's a professional
hosting, from http://www.1and1.com (a premium pack). When I said everything
we could need, I considered we would need PHP, PSP or Perl, I forgot other
solutions... Sorry :/
> > Anybody who want to start working, submit things, test them... can ask me
> > for the username and password...
> Please provide one for me! Username 'hideya'. Please send my initial
> password to my @dev.java.net account.
Ok, I've also a generic username for every other co-worker... But there is a
mandatory prefix to the username, and I fear nobody will be able to remember
it :/

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

> > One question -- what do you think about Ruby, especially Ruby on Rails?
> I wasn't clear, sorry... It's not hosted on my computer neither on a computer
> I control... I fear ruby isn't available on this hosting. It's a professional
> hosting, from http://www.1and1.com (a premium pack).

No problem. Since Ruby-on-Rails is very hot these days, I thought that it may be of our interest, but it is not mandatory. By the way, thanks a lot for your sharing your personal space for our effort!

> > > Anybody who want to start working, submit things, test them... can ask me
> > > for the username and password...
> > Please provide one for me! Username 'hideya'. Please send my initial
> > password to my @dev.java.net account.
> Ok, I've also a generic username for every other co-worker... But there is a
> mandatory prefix to the username, and I fear nobody will be able to remember
> it :/

No problem. Thanks for sending me the username and password. I surely got them :) I'm not sure how much I can contribute here because of bugs fixes, etc, but I wanted to be ready ;)

hideya

Radek Kierner

Hi Hideya,

> > Some time ago I was make some experiments with manipulating textures via
> > Pixel/Vertex Shaders in Java 3D and it was working and I think we could
add
> > some cool effects to X textures and lg3d, but this is only idea for now
>
> Yep, we are also interested in this area. Let's think what kind of useful
effect we can achieve... (maybe in another thread ;))
>

My dream is bump mapping in X11 textures example: text is bumped ;)

> We are still looking for volunteers for non-developer targeted home page!

I am not so good in that kind of stuff ,I got relly problems to write
something with sens
but my fovorite is http://www.songbirdnest.com/home layout and only in JSP
or Servlets at the PLUG I will search some guy to help me in polish edition
for that.

Radek

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Radek,

> My dream is bump mapping in X11 textures example: text is bumped ;)

I'm also very interested in this idea! Could be very cool! :-)

> > We are still looking for volunteers for non-developer targeted home page!
>
> I am not so good in that kind of stuff ,I got relly problems to write
> something with sens

I think you have a good sense (based on your development, BgManager ;) Oh, by the way, my comment above is not just talking to you, but I was talking to all the LG3D community members (but I forgot to make it clear). Sorry if you felt any pressure by the comment!

> but my fovorite is http://www.songbirdnest.com/home layout and only in JSP
> or Servlets

I check the site a minutes ago. I was expecting something very special... but a plain white page with a little text showed up. At first, I thought that you were joking! ;) Looking closely, the simple text on the page said that "Doh! Songbirdnest is undergoing maintenance love. Please check back in an hour or two." Hmmm... very bad timing. I'll check out the site again later.

> at the PLUG I will search some guy to help me in polish edition
> for that.

Thanks! That would be very helpful!

Best,
hideya

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hello again, LG3Ders,

On this front, we got the following volunteers (thank you, folks!):

o pinaraf
o ddew
o steookk

Hope we get a bit more... Any help would be appreciated. Hopefully Radek finds good people at the PLUG conference.

The web pages pointed out as good references are:

o http://plasma.kde.org
o http://www.songbirdnest.com/home
o http://gnome.org/
o http://www.mozilla.org/
o http://konqueror4.home.dyndns.org

If you find any other pages that we should learn from, please drop a message!

Thanks,
hideya

cost
Offline
Joined: 2004-09-25

I could help with the backend-coding, too.
(Have some knowledge of LAMP and Perl).
But we'll probably need some guys who are good
at CSS, JavaScript, etc...

Will we use AJAX?

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi cost,

Thanks for volunteering! We appreciate it a lot :)

> But we'll probably need some guys who are good
> at CSS, JavaScript, etc...

Yeah, that's true... anyone???

> Will we use AJAX?

Yeah, that'd be cool! ;) (maybe over architect???)
Let's think what we want first, then think about the fun part; the implementation :)

hideya

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Pierre,

Great job for your demo during Open Day and promoting free software and LG3D.

> The stand of the association for the promotion of free software at ENIC was
> one of the more attractive in the school
...
> They were really impressed by Looking Glass. It was smooth, nice looking...

I'm very glad to hear that! :-)

> the 3D desktop background switcher looked great for them
...
> and is a really good demonstration of 3D application.

Yes, I agree. Congratulations, Radek.

> So globally, I think we only have to work on X11 integration and on stability
> to have something ready.

Yes, we project owners are in agreement with your point.

> Off course we also need some features, some
configuration options everywhere, more eye-candy...

One thing we think very important, and would like to have help from the community is a feature that lets LG3D read Gnome/KDE configuration (menu, desktop icon, etc). I think it is important to lower the entrance barrier.

> What are the plans concerning pixmap_to_texture use in Looking Glass ? AFAIK
> it should improve performances, shouldn't it ?

Deron is the best person to answer this, but here is my take (please correct me if I'm wrong). We are working with Java 3D folks to optimize a process to convert X pixmap to texture. There are two things: (1) adding an X friendly texture format to Java 3D, (2) introduction of texture manipulation via NIO. This should improve the performance quite a bit.

As for render-into-texture, it won't be a short term. If it becomes reality, it even boosts LG3D's X integration performance.

> And what are the plans for a
> X.org upgrade to modular tree ?

I thought that Deron has finished it.

hideya

Radek Kierner

Hi Hideya, Pierre,

> > the 3D desktop background switcher looked great for them
> ...
> > and is a really good demonstration of 3D application.
>
> Yes, I agree. Congratulations, Radek.

Thanks, LayoutManager3D make all grat job in that app

> Deron is the best person to answer this, but here is my take (please
correct me if I'm wrong). We are working with Java 3D folks to optimize a
process to convert X pixmap to texture. There are two things: (1) adding an
X friendly texture format to Java 3D, (2) introduction of texture
manipulation via NIO. This should improve the performance quite a bit.
>
> As for render-into-texture, it won't be a short term. If it becomes
reality, it even boosts LG3D's ?>X integration performance.

Some time ago I was make some experiments with manipulating textures via
Pixel/Vertex Shaders in Java 3D and it was working and I think we could add
some cool effects to X textures and lg3d, but this is only idea for now

Radek

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hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi Radek,

> Thanks, LayoutManager3D make all grat job in that app

I'm very happy to hear that! :-)

> Some time ago I was make some experiments with manipulating textures via
> Pixel/Vertex Shaders in Java 3D and it was working and I think we could add
> some cool effects to X textures and lg3d, but this is only idea for now

Yep, we are also interested in this area. Let's think what kind of useful effect we can achieve... (maybe in another thread ;))

We are still looking for volunteers for non-developer targeted home page!

hideya

David Weizades

>
>
> We are still looking for volunteers for non-developer targeted home page!
>
> hideya

Count me in, since I do the least amount of coding one possibly can I would
fit into the "power-user" category. ;)

/ddew
[att1.html]

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

> Count me in, since I do the least amount of coding one possibly can I would
> fit into the "power-user" category. ;)

Thank, Dave/ddew! We do need help from a power-user like you! ;)

hideya

steookk
Offline
Joined: 2006-02-02

I didn't take PHP class (I should have taken it) so I can't help in the platform part.... but I want to contribute for the visual design part especially for helping designing a easy-nice layout.

hideya
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-22

Hi steookk,

Oops, I wrote in a wrong way. PHP was one example! We are open to any languages. It is something we should discuss and decide!

Thanks for your volunteering to help us out!

hideya

paulby
Offline
Joined: 2003-06-13

'Open Day' is probably the term I'd use for "la journée portes ouvertes"

If you figure out what is required as the framework for such a site there is a chance we can host it. I don't have a preference for the framework technology but we may as well stay consistant with the bulk of other sites so PHP might be the best.

Let us know what sort of reactions you get from your demos of lg3d at the Open Day.

Cheers

Paul

Pierre D.

Le Mercredi 15 Mars 2006 22:01, lg3d@javadesktop.org a écrit :
> Let us know what sort of reactions you get from your demos of lg3d at the
> Open Day.
Ok, so the open day is over.
The stand of the association for the promotion of free software at ENIC was
one of the more attractive in the school : I had my laptop, featuring Looking
Glass with a small DivX playing (and also some other windows to show a bit of
windows management in LG3D), while another member of the association had is
mac mini (running gentoo) with a Xgl demo (sadly, it was only a movie).
The people weren't advanced users, only a minority known about Linux...
They were really impressed by Looking Glass. It was smooth, nice looking...
"Here you can park windows, see the thumbnail running in the taskbar, rotate
the windows...", the 3D desktop background switcher looked great for them
(and I've a small feature to implement) and is a really good demonstration of
3D application.
A teacher came and was really surprised by Looking Glass, and even more
surprised when I said it's using X. For a lot of people, X is outdated, I
don't know why...

So globally, I think we only have to work on X11 integration and on stability
to have something ready. Off course we also need some features, some
configuration options everywhere, more eye-candy...
What are the plans concerning pixmap_to_texture use in Looking Glass ? AFAIK
it should improve performances, shouldn't it ? And what are the plans for a
X.org upgrade to modular tree ?

P.S : I faced some problems I'm going to look at, and I'm also going to work
on some small features really missing currently...
I was also scared when I tried to launch lg3d-app : it looks like there's a
small packaging problem with lg3d-x11.tar.gz : why are we providing a mesa
copy ? This libGL.so file was used instead of the ATI version, so I didn't
have 3D acceleration enabled to launch LG3D... hopefully when I replaced the
libGL.so provided by LG3D with my ATI libGL.so, everything worked again. Is
it a bug or a "feature" ?

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