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Name is not simple

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aminm
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Joined: 2003-11-14
Points: 0

This technology looks very promising (it is what I've always wanted).. but it has a serios flaw:

THE NAME!

If we call it JDNC, people get it confused with JNLP, JDIC, and JNDI.. Holy cow!! How are newbies supposed to get this straight!!!

What about a cool name like:

SimpleJava
SimpleDesktop
CoolDesktop
Java XDesktop
Jackhammer
.... or whatever...

I'm not a marketing guy.. go ask one what a good name is .. but get us excited.. NO MORE FOUR LETTER ACRONYMS!!

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dhall
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Joined: 2006-02-17
Points: 0

>> I don't see any problem in the name. Maybe in 10 years we'll run out of acronyms, but till then I'd rather use them as some marketing names.

We're working with unicode now -- we won't run out of acronyms before the sun runs out of hydrogen.

aminm
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Joined: 2003-11-14
Points: 0

> I don't see any problem in the name. Maybe in 10
> years we'll run out of acronyms, but till then I'd
> rather use them as some marketing names.
>

The sad thing is that JDNC IS a marketing name that conveys little meaning:

Java Desktop = rich client stuff Sun is pushing
Network components = a PC way of saying "applets" :)

Unfortunately it is very confusing. If I hear about Network Components coming from Sun I might assume you are talking about firewalls, routers and things like that..

> Acronyms have something to tell, their letters stand
> for a special meaning. Calling a technology

JDNC has nothing to tell.. JDNC, JNDI, JNLP, JDIC..
tell me what those things mean??

Now name me five popular open source projects ... I bet most of them have cool names, if not meaningful ones.

> "tigerXYZ" doesn't make any sense to me. We're no
> wind talkers and don't have to give everything
> cryptical and mystical names only to show the world
> what kind of intellectual elite we may be ;-)

tiger is not a marketing name. It is a codename. Codenames are obscure on purpose so that you don't know what the project is. Unfortunately marketing types now use them to generate excitement.

>
> I prefer exact terms. Tell me about JNDC (no problem
> in pronouncing this) and I know what we're talking
> about. Talk about tigers, turtles and whatever and
> you may tell me about your latest role playing
> experiences...

Ooops you mispelled JDNC,JNDC.. my point exactly!!!

I'm not proposing some dumb name necesarily. But think how much meaningful names promoted:

applets
servlets
JavaBeans
JDBC (meaningful per ODBC)
Java3d

And obscure Java tecnologies (things newbies have a hard time grasping):

JNDI
Jini (not meaningful)
JNLP
JNI

That's all I'm trying to say.. JDNC means nothing, is ambiguous, is not technical, is confusing, and....

I can picture myself telling people:

"Ok, all your Java troubles are over JDNC is the solution..."

"What???" (say the VB/Delphi/FoxPro/RPG/Cobol programmers)

"Its this cool new thing.."

"yeah right... another uncomprehensible technology.." (while turning brain off)

It easy for you to say because you probably don't have to teach the stuff to anybody, or try to convince your boss
of the merits of (meaningless) JDNC vs. (meaningless) .Net. :)

Anonymous

> Java Desktop = rich client stuff Sun is pushing
> Network components = a PC way of saying "applets"
> :)

My browser and my email client are both desktop apps and both use networking but none of them is an applet..

> Unfortunately it is very confusing. If I hear about
> Network Components coming from Sun I might assume you
> are talking about firewalls, routers and things like
> that..

It says "JAVA desktop network components" and not "SUN desktop network components". If one does not know that Java is not about hardware he/she should probably change profession.

> JDNC has nothing to tell.. JDNC, JNDI, JNLP, JDIC..
> tell me what those things mean??

I know the meaning of these acronyms and what technologies stand behind them, although I haven't worked with JNDI by now. If you already know the acronyms you may wish too look for yourself what their meaning is to clear things up for you.

> Now name me five popular open source projects ... I
> bet most of them have cool names, if not meaningful
> ones.

Eclipse, GNOME, KDE, Linux, Mozilla

Do you know what these acronyms stand for and what the word "mozilla" has got to do with web browsing?

But these projects play in another league. In direct comparison JDNC would be more liek a sub project of KDE or GTK. It's not a huge project that stands for a complex application. It's just a collection of components, a sub-project of Swing <= there you have your cool name

> Ooops you mispelled JDNC,JNDC.. my point exactly!!!

I produce typos 24/7. I've gotten pretty bad in typing except when it somes to coding. Strange, isn't it?

>
> I'm not proposing some dumb name necesarily. But
> think how much meaningful names promoted:
>
> applets
> servlets
> JavaBeans

Those are core technologies. Not what I would consider a sub-project.

> JDBC (meaningful per ODBC)

Explaining one acronym with another doesn't make sense. Not in a atime where more people start with JDBC and don't know about ODBC ;-)

> And obscure Java tecnologies (things newbies have a
> hard time grasping):
>
> JNDI
> Jini (not meaningful)
> JNLP
> JNI

I don't see why we should spread around with "meaningful" code names. Once I have to learn half a zoo and what animal stands for which technologie I'd rather think it being easier to use an acronym.

> That's all I'm trying to say.. JDNC means nothing, is
> ambiguous, is not technical, is confusing, and....

It means nothing until you know what it stands for. But in this there is no difference. Do I know about "Tiger" or "Eclipse" just by knowing the name?

> I can picture myself telling people:
>
> "Ok, all your Java troubles are over JDNC is the
> solution..."
>
> "What???" (say the VB/Delphi/FoxPro/RPG/Cobol
> programmers)
>
> "Its this cool new thing.."
>
> "yeah right... another uncomprehensible technology.."
> (while turning brain off)
>
> It easy for you to say because you probably don't
> have to teach the stuff to anybody, or try to
> convince your boss
> of the merits of (meaningless) JDNC vs. (meaningless)
> .Net. :)

And if you would picture yourself saying "Ok, all your Java troubles are over Warthog is the solution..." this would immeadiately be more meaningful to your VB/Delphi/FoxPro/RPG/Cobol programmers?

I have quite some doubts.. ;)

At the end what counts is the outcome, not the name. If programmers turn away because of the technology's name they should get fired because what really matters is the products and the services we make out of these technologies. Nothing more, nothing less.

Picture yourself not buying the car of your dreams because it's not clear to you what DOHC stands for although it's written in bold fat letters across your engine....

BTW... Dual OverHead Camshaft... ;-)

zander
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Joined: 2003-06-13
Points: 0

> > Now name me five popular open source projects I
> > bet most of them have cool names, if not meaningful
> > ones.
>
> Eclipse, GNOME, KDE, Linux, Mozilla

Groovy, Apache, BitTorrent, eMule, Gaim.

At least you can remember and talk about these.

There is one point to the naming thing I have not seen mentioned yet; having 3 or 4 letter acronyms makes the project look like its for 'experts' only. I really doubt you will see many Java newbees getting enthusiastic about JXTA, JDIC, JDNC, J3D, WSDP, JVMPI, JVMT1, JCP or "J2EE AVK".
Most of these come from the front-page of the java.sun.com site.

The naming problem here gets in the way of general marketing. I noticed and discussed this with colleagues various times over the last couple of years.
Its good to see that Sun still makes the same mistakes :}

James Todd

ahem ...

>I really doubt you will see many Java newbees getting enthusiastic about JXTA, JDIC, >JDNC, J3D, WSDP, JVMPI, JVMT1, JCP or "J2EE AVK".
> Most of these come from the front-page of the java.sun.com site.

We get self described "newbies" in JXTA-land everyday, literally. Try it out:

http://myjxta2.jxta.org

What I love about it all is that these folks see through the name and work to
understand, realize and drive the vision ... truly.

This is a golden project. I need it and so do other app developers that need
to uplevel the ui element of their code. As such, it will be used regardless
as to the name.

Question:

> Its good to see that Sun still makes the same mistakes :}

What purpose do statements like the above serve this list? This is unabashed
noise in the context of the work that needs to be done. Can't you put these
comments on a blog somewhere?

- james

jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org wrote:
>>>Now name me five popular open source projects I
>>>bet most of them have cool names, if not meaningful
>>>ones.
>>
>>Eclipse, GNOME, KDE, Linux, Mozilla
>
>
> Groovy, Apache, BitTorrent, eMule, Gaim.
>
> At least you can remember and talk about these.
>
> There is one point to the naming thing I have not seen mentioned yet; having 3 or 4 letter acronyms makes the project look like its for 'experts' only. I really doubt you will see many Java newbees getting enthusiastic about JXTA, JDIC, JDNC, J3D, WSDP, JVMPI, JVMT1, JCP or "J2EE AVK".
> Most of these come from the front-page of the java.sun.com site.
>
> The naming problem here gets in the way of general marketing. I noticed and discussed this with colleagues various times over the last couple of years.
> Its good to see that Sun still makes the same mistakes :}
> ---
> [Message sent by forum member 'zander' (Thomas Zander)]
>
> http://www.javadesktop.org/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=18432&#18432
>
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selendic
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Joined: 2006-02-17
Points: 0

Guys, name is a dissaster. Please rethink. It is almost impossible to use that acronym in normal conversation.

fnimphiu
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Joined: 2003-06-17
Points: 0

As said, I agree that this name let you fall over your tongue to often, but I still prefer technical names over flashy one. I am sure SUN will find something better soon.

Frank

Anonymous

I don't see any problem in the name. Maybe in 10 years we'll run out of acronyms, but till then I'd rather use them as some marketing names.

Acronyms have something to tell, their letters stand for a special meaning. Calling a technology "tigerXYZ" doesn't make any sense to me. We're no wind talkers and don't have to give everything cryptical and mystical names only to show the world what kind of intellectual elite we may be ;-)

I prefer exact terms. Tell me about JNDC (no problem in pronouncing this) and I know what we're talking about. Talk about tigers, turtles and whatever and you may tell me about your latest role playing experiences...

ronaldtm
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Joined: 2003-07-18
Points: 0

I'm not a fan of marketing names, but I think there are too many acronyms, too. Many times I've misspelled JNDI to JNI, for example. Well, maybe I just don't like holding shift while typing :)

rameshgupta
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Joined: 2004-06-04
Points: 0

> This technology looks very promising (it is what I've
> always wanted).. but it has a serios flaw:
>
> THE NAME!
>
> If we call it JDNC, people get it confused with JNLP,
> JDIC, and JNDI.. Holy cow!! How are newbies supposed
> to get this straight!!!
>
> What about a cool name like:
>
> SimpleJava
> SimpleDesktop
> CoolDesktop
> Java XDesktop
> Jackhammer
> .... or whatever...
>
> I'm not a marketing guy.. go ask one what a good name
> is .. but get us excited.. NO MORE FOUR LETTER
> ACRONYMS!!

I like "Jackhammer" ;-) but it is too late to change the official project name. We could use it as the code name for our next milestone release, no?

Anonymous

Indeed. I lost the acronym fight with the naming powers that be.

fnimphiu
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Joined: 2003-06-17
Points: 0

All,

I think I like techical names more than cool names because they take away the marketing flavour.

I don't mind a name like JDNC, though I agree that the acronym needs getting used to, if the product holds its promises.

Frank