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Java reality check

3 replies [Last post]
hemant_419
Offline
Joined: 2003-07-13
Points: 0

Hi friends,

I've posted a similar topic earlier also but got no satisfactory response.I am new to adv

java.I want to know wheather i am going in right direction or not.Please help me !

Friends have u ever asked a simple question to urself.

Is Java an idea oa a language.

Frommy side this was just an idea to provide c, c++ developers an abstract language. And that can

be done in any other also.Even now in c, c++ u exactly java like libraries have been introdiuced.

These libs represents exactly same abstract libraries as java apis. So even c, c++ has become

much easier. And this doesn't ends here.

Now friends lets take other ideas ( specially j2ee )

Jsp
Servlets
EJB
JDBC
JINI
JXTA

what these all & other similar technologies are ?

Its too too too... simple just IDEAS and nothin, nothing, nothing else.

Since along time java has matured a lot but still something is missing and earlier java graph was

rising but not due to too much complexity and scatteredness graph is declining speedily. Dotnet

is so easy to learn( ASP.net ).i've not heard of any prob regarding XML & Dotnet but in J2EE
side ?????????????????

Although a lot of apis r there like SAX,DOM,JAXP,JAXR,JAXM,JAXB & probable one more point XML-RPC

They can be implemented in other llanguages also but not legally. This is the only problem

otherwise Microsoft would have implemented them very easily.But i want ur views what exactly java

can do.

Can any of the following softwares or apps be made entirely in java?
Is it possible

Condition - They must exactly be same with all the features.

Internet Exploere ( IE )
Adobe Photoshop
Dreamweaver
GNOME

Friends from my side the reality is I have not seen a single such s/w ( desktop app ) entirely

in java working so efficiently 7 well as s/w made in other langs works since previous 3 yrs.

Than what exactly java ios all about?

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Anonymous

> I've posted a similar topic earlier also but got no
> o satisfactory response.I am new to adv

Well, maybe your post sounds a bit like trolling :)

> be done in any other also.Even now in c, c++ u
> exactly java like libraries have been introdiuced.

Yes, even something similar like a GC was done.

> Now friends lets take other ideas ( specially j2ee )
>
> Jsp
> Servlets
> EJB
> JDBC
> JINI
> JXTA
>
> what these all & other similar technologies are ?
>
>
> Its too too too... simple just IDEAS and nothin,
> nothing, nothing else.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Especially Servlets, JSPs and JDBC are more than ideas, I use them daily!

>. Dotnet is so easy to learn( ASP.net ).i've not heard of any
> prob regarding XML & Dotnet but in J2EE
> side ?????????????????

J2EE is not that hard to learn. I don't think that .Net is much easier (well, maybe if you are using Visual Basic).

With .Net you are limited to Microsoft, your server architectur has to come from Redmond. You really want that?

> Can any of the following softwares or apps be made
> entirely in java?
> Is it possible
>
> Condition - They must exactly be same with
> all the features.
>
> Internet Exploere ( IE )
> Adobe Photoshop
> Dreamweaver
> GNOME

Why should someone write a new browser in Java? Can IE be done in .Net (to be fair, skip VC.Net). Visual Basic doesn't perform any better and C# is a nice language IMHO, but it has too much stuff from C++ inside (writing unsafe code). C# has some area where it performs better as Java and Java has areas where it performs better as C#. GUI applications may look like a bit faster as Java GUI applications, but this is just because Windows Forms are *native* OS dependend implemented, Javas SWING is written in Java.

When I am talking to customers two things come out as important:
1.) OS independent - A lot of people looking for server side solutions that can run on multiple systems. No one really want Windows on the desktop, too bulky, too much viruses, hacks, worms, etc. A server side solution would be perfect, something in the direction of thin clients. Currently there are not much solutions for this out there. But my customers want to keep the door open as far as possible.
2.) Money and time - Development time is expensive here. With Java I am not able to run into problems like C++ or even C# have in some areas. And if you do it right, there is no time reauired to port your application from Windows to Mac OS, Linux, SGI Unix, whatever.

>
> Friends from my side the reality is I have not seen
> a single such s/w ( desktop app ) entirely

And is someone doing PhotoShop in .Net? Are there any nig .Net apps out there? ;)

Patrick

jacek
Offline
Joined: 2003-08-22
Points: 0

Let me weigh in a bit here, since I am working in .Net during my day job (oh, the horror) and do Java in my spare time for any consulting projects, or open-source stuff I like to experiment with.

I've worked with C# in business side components, ASP.Net and Windows.Forms. I admit I really like, it's a very nice language with a great development environment (VS.Net).

However...it's not light years ahead of Java in any way (the differences are too minute to really make much of a fuss, e.g. foreach or attributes...coming all to Java in 1.5 anyway). And of course...it only RUNS ON WINDOWS!!! (let me repeat that point...NO LINUX! NO UNIX! nothing).
People seem to always forget that.

Sure, ASP.Net is easier than JSP...if you've never seen a line of HTML in your life. I love JSP, I used to do PHP and after I got comfortable with JSP I could never imagine going back, it's just so much more flexible and powerful (the first time I did a tag library I was blown away at how powerful such a simple concept could be).

And the ease of ASP.Net comes at a price my friend...do Page->View Source and look at this HUGE chunk of code called ViewState. That's how ASP.Net "caches" all of its server-side controls in the page, makes the page quite larger if you're using a lot of controls or a particularly complex one.

Windows.Forms is quite easy to use, the GUI editor is excellent and this is one area where .Net has a visible advantage over Java. The x-platform aspect is less important here, since unfortunately most desktops run Windows anyway. As far as I can see, Windows.Forms apps start up in about the same time as Swing apps and consume around the same amount of memory, maybe a bit less.

However, the GUI editor is much easier and more productive than for Swing.

If I were Sun and I would be serious about making Java more accessible to the less technically experienced developer (*cough* VB'ers *cough*), I would:

a) devote a huge effort to improve NetBeans. Version 3.5.1 is quite devent speed-wise, but it badly needs a L&F overhaul (NO METAL! EVER! NOT IN ANY SINGLE APP!), a more refined Swing GUI editor and maybe a "visual" JSP editor that would simulate the ASP.Net editor. NetBeans needs to compete with VS.Net in terms of looks and performance and having it bundled and available for free is a huge advantage for Java (VS.Net isn't cheap, my friend).

b) add a new layout (.e.g. SimpleLayout) that would provide the same basic layout options as Windows.Forms have: dock, anchor (left/top/right, etc.). That layout in Windows.Forms is good enough for about 95% of our screens and would be much easier to handle than GridBagLayout (but you could still use it in more complex scenarios)

c) shared VM! (now that Sun is serious about the desktop (let's hope) this really is a must). I am dismayed it got dropped from 1.5.

Plus the usual stuff, i.e. improve Swing performance (speed-wise and memory wise), add missing Swing components (DirectoryChooser for once, using FileCHooser to select dirs is pretty amateurish, base Wizard component), etc.

I also think Sun should create something a like Swing PowerPack that would provide all the useful 3rd party components in one package (e.g. all the JGoodies stuff, JFreeChart, etc.) and have it available for download, branded and officially blessed directly from the Sun site.

And you think processing XML in .Net is so much easier than in Java? Sorry, but I think you haven't really done either of them.

And to imply there is something wrong overall with Java as a language or concept? Nah, Java is great, I like it a lot and I've seen my share of languages (starting with the BASIC on my Sinclair ZX Spectrum, my first ever computer).

vt_toonses
Offline
Joined: 2003-10-23
Points: 0

> Friends have u ever asked a simple question to
> urself.
>
> Is Java an idea oa a language.

Java is the realization of an idea (OO Dev). I'm not sure what you mean by the question, tho. It is obviously a language, but I've the feeling you're speaking metaphysically.

>
> Frommy side this was just an idea to provide c, c++
> developers an abstract language. And that can

I think you are too narrow in your target audience. Java wasn't created to provide a solution for c/c++ developers (although they were a focus group), but to provide a better solution to all developers (along with some other benefits).

>
> be done in any other also.Even now in c, c++ u
> exactly java like libraries have been introdiuced.
>

That's not entirely accurate. There are some very good additions to the Standard C++ library (aka STL), but the Java libs are still way ahead interms of usability, robustness, and functionality.

>
> Now friends lets take other ideas ( specially j2ee )
>
> Jsp
> Servlets
> EJB
> JDBC
> JINI
> JXTA
>
> what these all & other similar technologies are ?
>

Again, I'm not sure what you are asking, but it seems as if you are questioning the usefulness of those technologies.

I don't know how many of those you've used, but I find them greatly useful. I've used them to build wireless development and deployment tools, client/server systems, and web-based applications. Sure, I could have done this with other technologies, but I found it more efficient to use Java.

>
> Its too too too... simple just IDEAS and nothin,
> nothing, nothing else.
>

Somebody has to come up with them! :)

> Dotnet is so easy to learn( ASP.net ).

Hmmmm ... could this be the root of your post? Why continue with Java when we have .Net (which is "better")?

Well, I've used both and while .Net is cool, I prefer Java. It is more mature, portable (try to run .Net on a Solaris box), and less dependant on Micro$oft (I give them enough money already).

You need to ask yourself a question: Why is .Net so easy to learn? I'd bet a lot of that simplicity is due to the knowledge you gained learning Java. Starting from scratch, I doubt .Net is any easier to master than Java.

> i've not heard of any
> prob regarding XML & Dotnet but in J2EE
> side ?????????????????

Sure, Java's not perfect, but what in life is? The answer isn't to say, "Oh, it doesn't work here so it's no good." The answer is to fix the problem and move on.

> Although a lot of apis r there like
> SAX,DOM,JAXP,JAXR,JAXM,JAXB & probable one more point
> XML-RPC
>
> They can be implemented in other llanguages also but
> not legally. This is the only problem
> otherwise Microsoft would have implemented them very
> easily.But i want ur views what exactly java can do.

I think you might be a little misled here. DOM/SAX and XML-RPC are not proprietary technologies. In fact, MS has implementations of them as well as their own versions of the others.

>
> Can any of the following softwares or apps be made
> entirely in java?
> Is it possible
>
> Condition - They must exactly be same with
> all the features.
>
> Internet Exploere ( IE )
> Adobe Photoshop
> Dreamweaver
> GNOME
>
>
> Friends from my side the reality is I have not seen
> a single such s/w ( desktop app ) entirely
> in java working so efficiently 7 well as s/w made in
> other langs works since previous 3 yrs.
>
> Than what exactly java ios all about?

Sure, these applications can be made all in Java, by why? They already exist. ;) Why is it that you are questioning the validity of Java based on the applications that are not built with it? You should be looking at the applications that are built with it and asking if it was the appropriate choice.

I don't understand why there seems to be this quest for the Holy Grail of development languages. I like to woodwork. Do you think I have the "perfect" saw? No, I have about a dozen saws. They are all good, but serve different purposes. Languages are the same. Pick the one that fits the job and use it. Remember, "it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools."

Good luck in your quest for elightenment.

Gene