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Application devlopers salary

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riccardocossu
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I read this article linked on java.net:

http://www.idevnews.com/TipsTricks.asp?ID=154

There I can read:
'By development language, programmers in CICS and COBOL shops fare best, drawing average salaries of $72,100 and $70,200, respectively. VB programmers came in at $65,100, while Java was ranked at $63,500'

In the past weeks I read more articles on the same subject, but this salaries look very high to me, compared to what seems to be the average in Italy: I mean, in Italy a Java programmer usually gets no more than 30-35K Euros per year (gross income), which is about 40,000 U.S. dollars (I don't know whether this is gross or net income). Most of them (me included, I have over 2 years of experience and a CS degree) take much less (18-25K gross).
Is it that IT professional in Italy are much less appreciated or am I missing something - just to know?

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zeos21
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Joined: 2004-09-08
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Technology costs the same or more in those countries than in the US
i.e.:
IPOD Shuffle 1gb in Argentina: U$S 200 :(

dog
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Joined: 2003-08-22
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I'd say most of you are incredibly high paid!

In Paraguay developers make between $300-$1000/month (in the capital). In other cities salaries go between $150-$600/month ($600 is for the head of IT at a bank!).

Some people are able to make more.. but usually they are enterpreneurs who absorb a lot of risk.

Judging from the numbers you all should send your outsourcing here instead of other places. ::)

As for cost of living.. I'd say that in Paraguay you need about $850/month to live with some luxuries in your life. $300 to make ends meet. The minimum wage is $150/month.

felipeal
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Felipe,

If you want to compare US with Brazil, you must consider the relation 1 US$ = 1 R$, and not 1 US$ = 2.5 R$ (which is the exchange rate), as the salary (at least on the IT field) are similar in both countries. For instance, if a developer in California earns US$60k/year, the same developer would earn around R$5k/month in Brazil, so in absolute values the salaries are basicly the same.

So, for a fair comparison, you should compare the cost of things. For instance, in the US you can buy a good laptop for less than US$ 1000, or less than 20% of the salary. In Brazil they cost at least R$4000, or almost a full month salary. When you think about cars, it's even worse. A reasonable car in the US (like a Honda Civic) costs about US$ 14k; in Brazil, you can't find anything cheaper than R$18k, and these are crappy 1.0 liter cars (a Civic costs more than R$ 40k here). If you put the interest rates in the equation, the difference is even worse: you can buy cars in the US for 6% per year (and in many cases as low as 0%), while in Brazil it's about 1-2% per MONTH.

The only things that are cheaper in Brazil are labour-related costs (like maidens, day care and civil workers), housing in some places (in São Paulo it's almost as expensive as California) and some food (although food in the US is not as expensive as people think).

-- Felipe

felipegaucho
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Joined: 2003-06-13
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Hi Felipe,

I have no intention to compare countries - not even Brazil x USA because this comparision is imposible.

I was just providing a snapshot of the Brazilians profits to the overseas fellows ...

felipegaucho
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just another detail: 5K / month is a very rare salary over here.. 3k is a bit more precise.... :))

I was talking about 5k in order to enhance my country but if you are really looking for the raw reality ... :))

felipeal
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Felipe,

From which region of Brazil are you? In São Paulo (the capital, not in the whole state), a senior Java developer can easily earn about 5-7k/month, as contractor...

-- Felipe

felipegaucho
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ok, that´s an interesting point.. Brazil is a huge country with many different realities.

I´m living in Fortaleza, a wonderful beach at Northeastern of Brazil - we enjoy 360 sunny days a year and you have several beaches over here.. the people are friendly, and the life cycle is a very relaxing one...

but, nobody receives US$2k in any IT position around here :)) by the way, when you quote "as contractor" you are talking about PJ ? if yes, you must advice the others that this kind of contract has no benefits except the salary...

Note for the prospective immigrants: if you like beach, sun and music - welcome to Brazil. If you prefer money, keep away from here :))

bigfoot74205
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Well I'm from Slovenia (a small country in Europe, right next to Italy and Austria), I just got out of college and I make about €1400 / $1650 a month (appx. €16500 / $19500 a year) as a Java/JSP developer.

And that's net income, I take about €900 / $1075 of that home (€11800 / $13000 a year).
But like I said, I just got out of college, I don't have a lot of experience and the standard here is lower.

Overall I'm actually very happy with my salary.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that my taxes do pay both my health/social insurance, and also go into my pension fund.

caroljmcdonald
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You also have to take into consideration the exchange rate, which changes

riccardocossu
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Joined: 2005-09-22
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I know: at present I'm assuming an Euro is about 1.25-1.30 dollars, which of course may vary in the future, although it has been in that range since a quite long time.
I'm also asking other people to post from Europe to avoid this issue at all.

karlosklein
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Hi

here in Spain (I´m living in BArcelona but Madrid is more or less the same)

java developer CS 2 years experience average between 15K and 25K gross €

zeos21
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Argentina: Java S/Sr developer (2 YRS) : U$S 1000/1200 month
(U$S 13k /year, we have 13 salaries)

tberthel
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Many of the posts are using average income not the pay of an Application Developer. Also, many of them ignore exchange rates. In the real world dollars only have a value based on their location. So if you’re in Brazil, Argentina, China, or India your dollar buys more.

India ~20k in high tech location with 4X buying power of 80K
India ~12k in low tech location with 20X buying power of 240K
U.S. ~50k in Dallas with 1.5X buying power of 70k
U.S. ~100k in the Bay Area .5x buying power of 50k

It's relative to your location. So India, China, Brazil, and Argentina App Devs are making a killing despite their USD amount. While the U.S., Most of Europe, and Japan are screwing their own people so the rich can make foreign investments.

ronaldyang
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I'd be interested in seeing the distribution of programmer wages per area instead of averages or buying powers.

Like quartiles or quintiles. Possibly sextiles.

jhannes
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In Norway, salaries seem to be in the range of $50k - $80k for developers.

When comparing salaries across the world, it might be well worth to consider:
* Different countries have different standards for work-hours per year. In the US, it seems to be around 2000. In Norway, it's about 1750, which amounts for a 12.5 % difference in hourly salary for yearly work.
* Different countries have different cultures for compensation for overtime. In Norway, unpaid overtime is very uncommon, and in many cases, forbidden by law.
* Even though the US has lower tax rates than most European countries, US workers have to consider some expenses that are covered by taxes in Europe, such as health care and some pension benefits. For many US citizens, health care costs can be high
* The cost of living varies greatly between different countries

~Johannes

siver
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In Canada salaries range from about $35K-70K USD Gross with ~40% then taken in taxes, employment insurance, etc. Its a big range and depends on whether you're a pure code monkey (low end) or do business analysis/architecting (high end).

Living expenses are about the same as the States, maybe a little higher, but we do get "free" (see 40% taxes) healthcare.

Oh yeah, and like the States, I get paid for exactly 37.5 hours a week regardless of whether I'm in the office for 37.5 hours or 80 hours per week. BTW I don't think I've ever had a week with less than 45 hours in my five years. I figure I average in the high forties to early fifties.

olsonje
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Where I work on the western coast of the US, I'm considered an entry level person (BS degree in CS & about 3 years of experience now) and make around $40k/year and take home about 70% of that. Mind you my employeer isn't a normal private sector job and doesn't offer the pay of those. It's not uncommon for people I know to take jobs in the 70k+ range, and if you can get into a non-government management position, and are good at it, you can make 100k+ easy.

As for how to figure out taxes taken out each month, I am not married & have no dependents to claim, so they take the full amount out of my check each month, roughly about 30%. Now is all taxes(state & federal), portions towards retirement, my share of paying for benefits, social security, etc... Another words, just expect 30% to be taken out worse case.

Hope that info helps.

felipegaucho
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very interesting, you are talking about sci-fi salaries in the third world :)

just an example: in Brazil, a senior developer receives about US$2.000,00 per month. Not even a project manager receives US$60k / year.

the living cost in the same are is about US$1.000,00

riccardocossu
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Joined: 2005-09-22
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Olsonje: thanks for your info, you were very clear.
FelipeGaucho: I see in Italy the IT salaries are about the same as Brazil.
Now I understand why Kakà went to Italy as a football player, although he's made good studies :-)
Everyone: is there someone from other european countries?

abashev
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Here in Russia, Senior Developer cost from 700$ till 1.200$ (depends on experience). And Moscow is the third (I don't remember) expensive city in the world. This is sad, isn't it??
Right now I'm a Lead Developer with Master degree in CS and 8-years experience in commercial Java development and my salary is apx. 1.700$

jwenting
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US salaries in general are 50-100% higher than those in Europe in almost all sectors.
That is in part offset by other things like less social security and company benefits, but not in total.

As a result the buying power of the US consumer is a lot higher than that of their European counterparts in similar jobs.

riccardocossu
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I was considering moving to the USA for a while WITHOUT knowing this, now... :-)
Anyone from european countries (other than Italy)?

Jwenting, as far as you know those income are to be considered "gross" or "net"; I mean in Italy gross salary includes a certain amount of taxes and social security, about 40% of it.
What does typical US salary include other than net income (by that I mean what you get every month on your bank account)?

johnreynolds
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Riccardo,

Having visited Italy (Tuscany mostly) this summer, I can only say that I would gladly take a 50% pay cut to live in your country. Your quality of life (at least what I saw) is way beyond that of the typical American freeway-oriented-Starbucks-on-every-corner city.

JohnR

riccardocossu
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Joined: 2005-09-22
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John,
I mostly agree with you, and I'm not planning to settle away from Italy! :-)
I would rather gladly stay abroad for a while to gain experience and maybe a little more money, and then return home to raise a family: I think I can do it until I have no children, later it would be harder.
The problem in Italy is that there is a lot of suspect and ignorance about the IT, so the wages are kept a little low.

Abashev: yes it is sad... :-(