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no installer for coporate desktop scheduled ?

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netsql
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Joined: 2004-03-07
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Reading the bugs to be fixed in Java 6:
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2SE/Desktop/mustang/?fe...

and comparing it to "Response" blog:
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/joshy/archive/2005/05/the_reponse_to.html
where a user osbald commented:
"Needing to have local admin privileges to install the jre is a frequent problem we have with rollouts." (towards the end of commonets)

This has been a bug repored on "Un-official WebStart" page since 2001, w/ some workarounds.

Having Java JRE installable on corporate users desktops is a big priority.
(for Unix heads: In a windows shop, the coporate user is does not have admin priviledges, the network admin does. Flash and Firefox install fine w/ user rights, but not Java, since it needs some rights even for JRE. This is less of an issue in Unix shops where users tend to have some sudo rights. It be nice if Windows corporate users could use and install Java application.)

.V

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netsql
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One way to try to deploy to windows in corporate users is this:
http://www.ikvm.net

.V

bino_george
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Joined: 2003-06-16
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Hi Vic,
This is an issue that has Stanley from
deployment group already answered :

http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=302&messageID=8983#8983

> does. Flash and Firefox install fine w/ user rights,
> but not Java, since it needs some rights even for
> JRE.

This is not quite true based on Stanley's reply in
the above referenced thread :

>Flash actually requires administrative privileges to >install:

>http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/knowledgebase/index.cfm?id=tn_19148
>http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/releasenotes/mx/rn_mx.html#windows

Thanks,
Bino.

netsql
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Joined: 2004-03-07
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> Hi Vic,
> This is an issue that has Stanley from
> deployment group already answered :
>
>
> This is not quite true based on Stanley's reply in
> the above referenced thread .
I am quoting Stanely from that link, he said:

" The reason why Flash content seems to be easier to deploy is because the Flash player is often pre-installed on the system."

This is absolutley not true, it is a lie. I install all 3 OSes all the time, it is never pre-installed. it is just easy to deploy, so his defense is invalid. Java should be easy to deploy!

He goes on to say in same thread:
"We are considering supporting "elevated privileges" mode in the installer, so users without administrator rights could install the Java runtime if they are given elevated privileges".

This is of no use. Having to ask admin to give you eleveated privliges is just like asking for admin privllivages. So the current plan is that Java apps can't be deployed to Corporate Desktops and it wont' cvhange once Mustang is widley aavaialble. (In general, Stanley tends to give "political" answers)

I suggest this technocal aproach instead:
http://lopica.sourceforge.net/faq.html
Search for FAQ: "Q: Can I install Web Start on Windows without admin privileges?"
There they explain how to do this.

good luck.

.V

(linux java should link the needed .so file so applets work in mozilla and firefox, in the other thread!)

mthornton
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Joined: 2003-06-10
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> " The reason why Flash content seems to be easier to
> deploy is because the Flash player is often
> pre-installed on the system."
>
> This is absolutley not true, it is a lie. I install
> all 3 OSes all the time, it is never pre-installed.
> it is just easy to deploy, so his defense is invalid.
> Java should be easy to deploy!

While Flash isn't in the standard MS installation, many OEMs do install it. So if you get a DELL machine with Windows preinstalled, then it comes with a whole pile of software preinstalled in addition to the base Windows OS.

netsql
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Joined: 2004-03-07
Points: 0

>
> While Flash isn't in the standard MS installation,
> many OEMs do install it. So if you get a DELL machine
> with Windows preinstalled, then it comes with a whole
> pile of software preinstalled in addition to the base
> Windows OS.

I know if you get a pc at best buy, it comes w/ flash.

Are you sure Dell does install Flash or are you guessing?
I buy dells all the time, w/ Linux, so no Flash.
In 2 weeks I will get the X-1 Laptop, it comes w/ windows, I will check.

My brother is in charge of network for a fortune 50 telco, they install from Windows Cd's.

The point is that java should be installable by a corporate users w/o admin rights w/ out of the box Java.
Now I have to hack java to install to cororate desktop.

.V
rant #302,846:
Stanley Ho also changed the screen shopts on his blog AFTER he got comments on it, and claimed java ..03 was not updated via "control panel update" for political reasons. he had 4 years with apparently large team (I count 16 different people presenting at java one, 3 per session, on java deployment) to fix ws, and nothing happened. short story is that if many good developers (Scott Viloet, George, Jannete, Chaet, etc.) want us to deploy Java, the mentality has to change. people that cuased the probelm are not able to solve it. can we get Stanley ho to spread his wisdom at MS? w/ 2 splash screen, one a warning, no corporate deployment, no 64 bit support, no applets support in linux, no contorl panel update, no deployment kit for browsers; let him add those "fetures" for XAML. we can just look at the dates issues are reported on in the "unofficial webstart faq"(it says 2001). and how did he decide to do new features in mustang as opposed to fix those bugs in 1.5? or 1.4? right now, I have to buypass Sun WebStart and use open source netx webstart launcher so I do not get the 2nd splash screen.

mthornton
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Joined: 2003-06-10
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If you get the .MSI file for a java installation and use Group Policy Software Installation to install it, does the installation then run with the (elevated) privileges of the administrator and not the user who requests the installation? The group policy need only be configured once for the domain by the administrator and not per user so this shouldn't be an onerous task.

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/guide/deployment/deployment-guide/up...

Later releases also have .MSI files which can be found in a similar manner.

netsql
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Joined: 2004-03-07
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> If you get the .MSI file for a java installation and
> use Group Policy Software Installation to install it,
> does the installation then run ...

I think what you are saying is that an admin could create something for intranet.

The point is... there should be no admin step, you are sayign here is more things for admin to do.

If one make software for the inernet, we want corporate users to be able to use it (and deploy it)
If they first have to have a meeting w/ IT, forget about it.

The JRE hacks to make it deployable are there I linked.
Can we do this for 1.5?
.V

mthornton
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Many corporations won't allow you to install [b]anything[/b] without meeting IT. You can already install a private copy of the JRE with just regular user permissions. What you can't do is install a browser plugin or WebStart without having acquired admin privileges. Those responsible for IT security probably consider that this situation is exactly as it should be.

Now no doubt something could be done to make the intranet deployment of Java via active directory easier --- handhold the administrator through the procedure. Plus extra reassurance for admins that Java is safe to deploy in this way.

However what you appear to want isn't really a technical issue at all, rather you want to bypass the administrator(s) and install something without their permission or knowledge. I do not think that this is the appropriate way to proceed. Further with ever increasing emphasis on IT security it is unlikely to work.